3 ms·

You don't think RFK has anything to do with it?

MoltenMan 2mo ago
The reason there are measles cases is because a decent percentage of people aren't getting vaccinated anymore. If all of the cases were 2 year olds or younger (when RFK was put in charge) then possibly. But not only are they older (https://www.cdc.gov/measles/data-research/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/measles/data-research/index.html), this is also happening in Canada. I don't see how it could possibly be RFK's fault.
- AnotherGoodName 2mo ago
  While It’s fair to point out that RFK is hopping on a train that’s already got momentum, your first comment reads as if it’s not caused by falling vaccination rates (your second comment clarified further). Also why not blame politicians doing the wrong thing?
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - MoltenMan 2mo ago
    Perhaps I should've been clearer. And yes they aren't helping. And yes, we should blame them for the things they do. T But the comment I was responding to was acting as if MAGA was the reason for measles outbreaks, which is false. I'm an incredibly strong believer in the truth. An example of why I think this is an important separation: imagine you tried to fix the measles outbreak and miraculously got every single American to hate Trump and got Trump out of office. The problem would still not be fixed! People would still be dying of measles! The effort would have been almost completely wasted!
    - stickfigure 2mo ago
      A major campaign by RFK's replacement could absolutely make a significant difference stopping the spread of measles. That's the whole point of the (proven extremely effective!) vaccine.
      - MoltenMan 2mo ago
        Do you believe this? I think it might help a little, but so we're on the same page RFK has only been in charge for 2 years. Why wasn't the previous secretary of health doing this? The measles outbreaks may be relatively new but we've had the vaccination data to see it coming for over a decade. My personal belief is that there a lot of people who believe stupid things out there (and it's all only amplified by the news and social media), and for anti vaxxers especially I don't think an authority figure saying 'You have to get the measles vaccine!' is going to help much, unfortunate as it is. :(
        nemomarx 2mo ago
        I don't think it would be logistically that hard to criminalize the parents or take away their kids in those cases. It would have a lot of other downsides but it would probably reduce the rate pretty directly.
        stickfigure 2mo ago
        I'll bet it would be enough just to make sure that the vaccine waiver signature box is positioned directly below some glossy full color pictures of emaciated, rash covered dead children.
        horacemorace 2mo ago
        Excepting the turbo fascism, that is. People must be able feel agency while parenting or they can’t parent well.
        cindyllm 2mo ago
        [dead]
        MoltenMan 2mo ago
        Ok if you want to do this then sure there is an easy solution. I think there are other problems with this though (for example no way this is flying even with the majority of people who are not anti-vax).
- renegade-otter 2mo ago
  COVID and anti-vaxxing explosion happened 6 years ago.
  - MoltenMan 2mo ago
    Look at the source I linked! Only 20% of cases are under 5!
    - nkozyra 2mo ago
      Unlike a lot of pathogenic diseases, measles requires an extraordinarily high amount of herd immunity (upwards of 95%), so this isn't a particularly telling data point on its own.
    - mrguyorama 2mo ago
      RFK Jr has been pushing anti-vaccine bullshit for decades. He was already taking defensive stances on his activism (Oh, I'm not anti-vaccine, I'm just providing nonsense arguments and clout for anti-vaccine stances) back in 2015. Kennedy was already pushing bullshit during the UK Measles vaccine fraud/scare, back in 2005. He was doing this along with a few other celebrities.
      - renegade-otter 2mo ago
        In fact, he is blamed for spreading vaccination hesitancy in Samoa and the deaths of multiple children there as the result even before COVID: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/newly-obtained-emails-undermine-rfk-jr-s-testimony-about-2019-samoa-trip-before-measles-outbreak https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/newly-obtained-emails-un...
      - MoltenMan 2mo ago
        I've responded to a few people on this but the comment I was responding to was literally about the last 6 years! The context of this entire thread is about MAGA / Trump! I agree that RFK is hurting and has been for a long time, but that is not what this argument is about!
- nkozyra 2mo ago
  True, but RFK (and other politicians and celebrities) have been active in pushing some form of anti-vax ideology for a decade plus, in some cases back to the 1970s. It's been a growing movement, not something that kicked off when RFK assumed the HHS role.
  - freediddy 2mo ago
    Pre-Trump, anti-vaxxers were notorious left-wing granola types. Lots of anti-vaxxers were white liberals living in Marin and NorCal and sending their children to private schools like Waldorf. Only after Trump did people start lumping them in with right wing.
    - wredcoll 2mo ago
      Trump gave them official government support and promoted them.
    - riffraff 2mo ago
      > Pre-Trump, anti-vaxxers were notorious left-wing granola types so, exactly RFK's type :)
    - secretsatan 2mo ago
      Well that’s just not true, anti vax has always been a theme of the far right, infowars and i’m sure others have a long history of it. The left wing libs types are far more recent, and i would lump them more in with the wellness brigade.
      - freediddy 2mo ago
        You are completely wrong. It's always been a far left concept until COVID. This is from Mother Jones, a very liberal web site. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/the-anti-vax-movements-radical-shift-from-crunchy-granola-purists-to-far-right-crusaders/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/the-anti-vax-mo...
        2mo ago
freediddy 2mo ago
RFK has publicly come out and encouraged parents to get vaccinated for measles. I don't know why you are spreading disinformation. https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/article/rfk-jr-says-parents-should-vaccinate-children-against-measles-as-us-cases-hit-a-35-year-high-160031759.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/article/rfk-jr-says-pare...
- Hikikomori 2mo ago
  Oh great he's doing it now after causing fear and doubt about them for decades, getting many people killed, in Samoa for example.
  - maipen 2mo ago
    Most of his criticisms have been about the timing of certain vaccines administrations. He's not anti vax. If nobody can challenge science, then it's not science. Vaccines continues to help us, but that doesn't mean they are perfect and don't cause side effects on certain individuals. Hopefuly the future brings us highly personalized medicine instead of a 1 size fits all.
    - onraglanroad 2mo ago
      > If nobody can challenge science, then it's not science. If someone has spent some time actually learning science then of course they can challenge science. If they are a lazy halfwit parroting crap they listened to on the latest podcast (because reading is hard!)... no. Not so much.
    - epihelix 2mo ago
      Claiming RFK is not anti-vax, is like claiming Dario is not anti-open-weights. (Well, it's way worse that that, but I didn't want to invoke Godwin's law.) He is not "challenging science" with measured arguments and carefully controlled peer-reviewed research to back his claims. He's deliberately trying to silence science because of a completely unsupported brain fart. And no, it's not about "timing". It's about spreading baseless FUD to discourage any form of vaccination, because he believes (with no actual evidence, and despite vast amounts of research to the contrary) that vaccination causes autism.

The reason there are measles cases is because a decent percentage of people aren't getting vaccinated anymore. If all of the cases were 2 year olds or younger (when RFK was put in charge) then possibly. But not only are they older (https://www.cdc.gov/measles/data-research/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/measles/data-research/index.html), this is also happening in Canada. I don't see how it could possibly be RFK's fault.

AnotherGoodName 2mo ago
While It’s fair to point out that RFK is hopping on a train that’s already got momentum, your first comment reads as if it’s not caused by falling vaccination rates (your second comment clarified further). Also why not blame politicians doing the wrong thing?
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- MoltenMan 2mo ago
  Perhaps I should've been clearer. And yes they aren't helping. And yes, we should blame them for the things they do. T But the comment I was responding to was acting as if MAGA was the reason for measles outbreaks, which is false. I'm an incredibly strong believer in the truth. An example of why I think this is an important separation: imagine you tried to fix the measles outbreak and miraculously got every single American to hate Trump and got Trump out of office. The problem would still not be fixed! People would still be dying of measles! The effort would have been almost completely wasted!
  - stickfigure 2mo ago
    A major campaign by RFK's replacement could absolutely make a significant difference stopping the spread of measles. That's the whole point of the (proven extremely effective!) vaccine.
    - MoltenMan 2mo ago
      Do you believe this? I think it might help a little, but so we're on the same page RFK has only been in charge for 2 years. Why wasn't the previous secretary of health doing this? The measles outbreaks may be relatively new but we've had the vaccination data to see it coming for over a decade. My personal belief is that there a lot of people who believe stupid things out there (and it's all only amplified by the news and social media), and for anti vaxxers especially I don't think an authority figure saying 'You have to get the measles vaccine!' is going to help much, unfortunate as it is. :(
      - nemomarx 2mo ago
        I don't think it would be logistically that hard to criminalize the parents or take away their kids in those cases. It would have a lot of other downsides but it would probably reduce the rate pretty directly.
        stickfigure 2mo ago
        I'll bet it would be enough just to make sure that the vaccine waiver signature box is positioned directly below some glossy full color pictures of emaciated, rash covered dead children.
        horacemorace 2mo ago
        Excepting the turbo fascism, that is. People must be able feel agency while parenting or they can’t parent well.
        cindyllm 2mo ago
        [dead]
        MoltenMan 2mo ago
        Ok if you want to do this then sure there is an easy solution. I think there are other problems with this though (for example no way this is flying even with the majority of people who are not anti-vax).
renegade-otter 2mo ago
COVID and anti-vaxxing explosion happened 6 years ago.
- MoltenMan 2mo ago
  Look at the source I linked! Only 20% of cases are under 5!
  - nkozyra 2mo ago
    Unlike a lot of pathogenic diseases, measles requires an extraordinarily high amount of herd immunity (upwards of 95%), so this isn't a particularly telling data point on its own.
  - mrguyorama 2mo ago
    RFK Jr has been pushing anti-vaccine bullshit for decades. He was already taking defensive stances on his activism (Oh, I'm not anti-vaccine, I'm just providing nonsense arguments and clout for anti-vaccine stances) back in 2015. Kennedy was already pushing bullshit during the UK Measles vaccine fraud/scare, back in 2005. He was doing this along with a few other celebrities.
    - renegade-otter 2mo ago
      In fact, he is blamed for spreading vaccination hesitancy in Samoa and the deaths of multiple children there as the result even before COVID: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/newly-obtained-emails-undermine-rfk-jr-s-testimony-about-2019-samoa-trip-before-measles-outbreak https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/newly-obtained-emails-un...
    - MoltenMan 2mo ago
      I've responded to a few people on this but the comment I was responding to was literally about the last 6 years! The context of this entire thread is about MAGA / Trump! I agree that RFK is hurting and has been for a long time, but that is not what this argument is about!
nkozyra 2mo ago
True, but RFK (and other politicians and celebrities) have been active in pushing some form of anti-vax ideology for a decade plus, in some cases back to the 1970s. It's been a growing movement, not something that kicked off when RFK assumed the HHS role.
- freediddy 2mo ago
  Pre-Trump, anti-vaxxers were notorious left-wing granola types. Lots of anti-vaxxers were white liberals living in Marin and NorCal and sending their children to private schools like Waldorf. Only after Trump did people start lumping them in with right wing.
  - wredcoll 2mo ago
    Trump gave them official government support and promoted them.
  - riffraff 2mo ago
    > Pre-Trump, anti-vaxxers were notorious left-wing granola types so, exactly RFK's type :)
  - secretsatan 2mo ago
    Well that’s just not true, anti vax has always been a theme of the far right, infowars and i’m sure others have a long history of it. The left wing libs types are far more recent, and i would lump them more in with the wellness brigade.
    - freediddy 2mo ago
      You are completely wrong. It's always been a far left concept until COVID. This is from Mother Jones, a very liberal web site. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/the-anti-vax-movements-radical-shift-from-crunchy-granola-purists-to-far-right-crusaders/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/the-anti-vax-mo...
      - 2mo ago

freediddy 2mo ago

RFK has publicly come out and encouraged parents to get vaccinated for measles. I don't know why you are spreading disinformation. https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/article/rfk-jr-says-parents-should-vaccinate-children-against-measles-as-us-cases-hit-a-35-year-high-160031759.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/article/rfk-jr-says-pare...

Hikikomori 2mo ago
Oh great he's doing it now after causing fear and doubt about them for decades, getting many people killed, in Samoa for example.
- maipen 2mo ago
  Most of his criticisms have been about the timing of certain vaccines administrations. He's not anti vax. If nobody can challenge science, then it's not science. Vaccines continues to help us, but that doesn't mean they are perfect and don't cause side effects on certain individuals. Hopefuly the future brings us highly personalized medicine instead of a 1 size fits all.
  - onraglanroad 2mo ago
    > If nobody can challenge science, then it's not science. If someone has spent some time actually learning science then of course they can challenge science. If they are a lazy halfwit parroting crap they listened to on the latest podcast (because reading is hard!)... no. Not so much.
  - epihelix 2mo ago
    Claiming RFK is not anti-vax, is like claiming Dario is not anti-open-weights. (Well, it's way worse that that, but I didn't want to invoke Godwin's law.) He is not "challenging science" with measured arguments and carefully controlled peer-reviewed research to back his claims. He's deliberately trying to silence science because of a completely unsupported brain fart. And no, it's not about "timing". It's about spreading baseless FUD to discourage any form of vaccination, because he believes (with no actual evidence, and despite vast amounts of research to the contrary) that vaccination causes autism.