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Why? I don't trust a wood chipper or angle grinder or fireworks on the Fourth of July, so I'm extra careful around them. Doesn't mean I don't use them. > Is t

Why? I don't trust a wood chipper or angle grinder or fireworks on the Fourth of July, so I'm extra careful around them. Doesn't mean I don't use them. > Is the force even still there… Yep.

senordevnyc 2mo ago
OK, so apparently the claim that "no one will ever trust the US or their commitments again" means that businesses and governments will still enter into all manner of trades and alliances and business arrangements with the US, but in their heart of hearts, they won't actually trust the US?
- ceejayoz 2mo ago
  Think of it this way: You loan a friend $5k. They promise to pay it back. They don't. You may still hang out! But you may never loan them money again unless they give meaningful evidence they've changed. The US probably has one concrete chance left to prosecute, convict, and jail these folks to rebuild trust. My vibe from the Democrats is that they'll whiff that opportunity.
  - senordevnyc 2mo ago
    But...countries, individuals, and companies the world over are loaning the US money right now. They're trading with the US, they're doing joint military exercises, they're forming new alliances, they're visiting the US, they're sending their kids to school here, they're buying real estate here. Don't get me wrong, I loathe Trump and what his band of nutjobs has done to this country. The damage is deep and long-lasting. But we're not quite yet a global pariah that no one will touch with a ten foot pole, nor are we (as some other commenter hilariously suggested) a failed state. Not yet. Not really even close. Honestly, these discussions usually look more to me like what people wish was true, probably because they're both angry and powerless, than any kind of sober assessment of reality. All that said, it'll be interesting to look back on this moment in a decade or two and see where it was going. History is notoriously difficult to predict. EDIT in response to your links below: of course these all have been impacted! We're talking about the claim that "Nobody and no country will trust the US or their commitments ever again." Which is nonsensical, as proven by all your handy stats showing that many, many people, companies, and countries still trust the US.
    - ceejayoz 2mo ago
      > they're doing joint military exercises Some of them to protect against us! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Arctic_Endurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Arctic_Endurance (Which, for the record, is pretty new, at least for NATO.) > they're visiting the US Staggering dip in US tourism is a troubling sign for the future: https://www.cnn.com/2026/05/25/travel/analysis-tourism-fewer-international-visitors-2025-vis https://www.cnn.com/2026/05/25/travel/analysis-tourism-fewer... > they're sending their kids to school here https://time.com/article/2026/05/12/us-university-higher-education-international-students-asia-trump-immigration-visa/ https://time.com/article/2026/05/12/us-university-higher-edu... "Foreign student enrollment at U.S. universities for the 2026 spring semester fell by 20% from last spring, according to a new report by organizations including U.S.-based international education nonprofit NAFSA." > they're buying real estate here https://www.newsweek.com/foreign-buyers-flee-u-s-housing-but-it-wont-help-american-buyers-12263188 https://www.newsweek.com/foreign-buyers-flee-u-s-housing-but... "Foreign buyers continue fleeing the U.S. housing market, with their activity falling 14 percent between April 2025 and March 2026 to the second-lowest level since the National Association of Realtors (NAR) started tracking purchases in 2009." > Honestly, these discussions usually look more to me like what people wish was true… Indeed! See above.
    - ceejayoz 2mo ago
      > We're talking about the claim that "Nobody and no country will trust the US or their commitments ever again." > Which is nonsensical, as proven by all your handy stats showing that many, many people, companies, and countries still trust the US. Hurr durr, yes, it's not an instant process. You slayed the strawman, saving you from engaging with the points everyone's making! The collapse of the USSR took decades, too. Were they trustworthy? Is the used car salesman trustworthy, or do people just need used cars still, for now? Hell, you don't trust my links, yet you engage (well, sorta) with me here. Right?
      - senordevnyc 2mo ago
        The point that everyone is making is that the world has fundamentally changed because of Trump, and "nobody and no country will trust the US or their commitments ever again". It's been repeatedly demonstrated that this certainly isn't true now, so you're moving the goalposts to some indeterminate point in the future where it will be true, with no idea of when. "Decades", apparently. So I guess the claim has now been watered down from "nobody will trust the US again" to the idea of a gradual decline of the US over decades. Hardly a unique insight, or one worth really discussing. It's near impossible to predict what will happen in the world over the coming decades. What we can definitely say right now is that the claim as stated is bullshit. Perhaps it's a strawman from what you actually meant, but I can only respond to all the words and arguments you actually provided. EDIT: for fun, I clicked on your link about the "staggering" drop in tourism. It's down a whopping 5.5%. Only 68 million visitors in 2025 vs 72 million in 2024. Time to pack it up and go home, the US had a good run, but we're clearly a failed state and no one wants to come here anymore.
- Paradigma11 2mo ago
  Yes, but it will be much more expensive and inefficient compared to the trades and alliances with nations that are trusted. Basically the US is a failed state. Functioning nations can make agreements that survive leadership changes. The US is not one of those.
  - senordevnyc 2mo ago
    Ah, now the US is a failed state. As in, the government has lost control, state monopoly on violence is gone, armed groups have taken over, no public services, etc. Just like Somalia, Yemen, etc. Makes sense.
Aurornis 2mo ago
> Doesn't mean I don't use them. And the goalposts keep moving. You’re proving my point by admitting that you still use it.
- ceejayoz 2mo ago
  Consider: I may also try and make/buy safer tools so I don't ever have to use them again at some point in the future. I may hire someone else (China!) to do the work. A lack of trust does not mean an immediate cessation of use, but it does meaningfully change the relationship. "I use x" is not evidence of "I trust x". Sometimes it's evidence of "I have no choice but to use x for now". If you put in your notice at a job, and they desperately double your salary to keep you, do you trust that they're happy to keep paying that, or do you reasonably assume they're probably gonna start interviewing for a cheaper replacement? > And the goalposts keep moving. Falsely conflating usage with trust is a goalpost move. If you'd posted "people still trade with the US", I'd have heartily agreed. But that wasn't the question.

Why? I don't trust a wood chipper or angle grinder or fireworks on the Fourth of July, so I'm extra careful around them. Doesn't mean I don't use them. > Is the force even still there… Yep.

senordevnyc 2mo ago

OK, so apparently the claim that "no one will ever trust the US or their commitments again" means that businesses and governments will still enter into all manner of trades and alliances and business arrangements with the US, but in their heart of hearts, they won't actually trust the US?

ceejayoz 2mo ago
Think of it this way: You loan a friend $5k. They promise to pay it back. They don't. You may still hang out! But you may never loan them money again unless they give meaningful evidence they've changed. The US probably has one concrete chance left to prosecute, convict, and jail these folks to rebuild trust. My vibe from the Democrats is that they'll whiff that opportunity.
- senordevnyc 2mo ago
  But...countries, individuals, and companies the world over are loaning the US money right now. They're trading with the US, they're doing joint military exercises, they're forming new alliances, they're visiting the US, they're sending their kids to school here, they're buying real estate here. Don't get me wrong, I loathe Trump and what his band of nutjobs has done to this country. The damage is deep and long-lasting. But we're not quite yet a global pariah that no one will touch with a ten foot pole, nor are we (as some other commenter hilariously suggested) a failed state. Not yet. Not really even close. Honestly, these discussions usually look more to me like what people wish was true, probably because they're both angry and powerless, than any kind of sober assessment of reality. All that said, it'll be interesting to look back on this moment in a decade or two and see where it was going. History is notoriously difficult to predict. EDIT in response to your links below: of course these all have been impacted! We're talking about the claim that "Nobody and no country will trust the US or their commitments ever again." Which is nonsensical, as proven by all your handy stats showing that many, many people, companies, and countries still trust the US.
  - ceejayoz 2mo ago
    > they're doing joint military exercises Some of them to protect against us! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Arctic_Endurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Arctic_Endurance (Which, for the record, is pretty new, at least for NATO.) > they're visiting the US Staggering dip in US tourism is a troubling sign for the future: https://www.cnn.com/2026/05/25/travel/analysis-tourism-fewer-international-visitors-2025-vis https://www.cnn.com/2026/05/25/travel/analysis-tourism-fewer... > they're sending their kids to school here https://time.com/article/2026/05/12/us-university-higher-education-international-students-asia-trump-immigration-visa/ https://time.com/article/2026/05/12/us-university-higher-edu... "Foreign student enrollment at U.S. universities for the 2026 spring semester fell by 20% from last spring, according to a new report by organizations including U.S.-based international education nonprofit NAFSA." > they're buying real estate here https://www.newsweek.com/foreign-buyers-flee-u-s-housing-but-it-wont-help-american-buyers-12263188 https://www.newsweek.com/foreign-buyers-flee-u-s-housing-but... "Foreign buyers continue fleeing the U.S. housing market, with their activity falling 14 percent between April 2025 and March 2026 to the second-lowest level since the National Association of Realtors (NAR) started tracking purchases in 2009." > Honestly, these discussions usually look more to me like what people wish was true… Indeed! See above.
  - ceejayoz 2mo ago
    > We're talking about the claim that "Nobody and no country will trust the US or their commitments ever again." > Which is nonsensical, as proven by all your handy stats showing that many, many people, companies, and countries still trust the US. Hurr durr, yes, it's not an instant process. You slayed the strawman, saving you from engaging with the points everyone's making! The collapse of the USSR took decades, too. Were they trustworthy? Is the used car salesman trustworthy, or do people just need used cars still, for now? Hell, you don't trust my links, yet you engage (well, sorta) with me here. Right?
    - senordevnyc 2mo ago
      The point that everyone is making is that the world has fundamentally changed because of Trump, and "nobody and no country will trust the US or their commitments ever again". It's been repeatedly demonstrated that this certainly isn't true now, so you're moving the goalposts to some indeterminate point in the future where it will be true, with no idea of when. "Decades", apparently. So I guess the claim has now been watered down from "nobody will trust the US again" to the idea of a gradual decline of the US over decades. Hardly a unique insight, or one worth really discussing. It's near impossible to predict what will happen in the world over the coming decades. What we can definitely say right now is that the claim as stated is bullshit. Perhaps it's a strawman from what you actually meant, but I can only respond to all the words and arguments you actually provided. EDIT: for fun, I clicked on your link about the "staggering" drop in tourism. It's down a whopping 5.5%. Only 68 million visitors in 2025 vs 72 million in 2024. Time to pack it up and go home, the US had a good run, but we're clearly a failed state and no one wants to come here anymore.
Paradigma11 2mo ago
Yes, but it will be much more expensive and inefficient compared to the trades and alliances with nations that are trusted. Basically the US is a failed state. Functioning nations can make agreements that survive leadership changes. The US is not one of those.
- senordevnyc 2mo ago
  Ah, now the US is a failed state. As in, the government has lost control, state monopoly on violence is gone, armed groups have taken over, no public services, etc. Just like Somalia, Yemen, etc. Makes sense.

Aurornis 2mo ago

> Doesn't mean I don't use them. And the goalposts keep moving. You’re proving my point by admitting that you still use it.

ceejayoz 2mo ago
Consider: I may also try and make/buy safer tools so I don't ever have to use them again at some point in the future. I may hire someone else (China!) to do the work. A lack of trust does not mean an immediate cessation of use, but it does meaningfully change the relationship. "I use x" is not evidence of "I trust x". Sometimes it's evidence of "I have no choice but to use x for now". If you put in your notice at a job, and they desperately double your salary to keep you, do you trust that they're happy to keep paying that, or do you reasonably assume they're probably gonna start interviewing for a cheaper replacement? > And the goalposts keep moving. Falsely conflating usage with trust is a goalpost move. If you'd posted "people still trade with the US", I'd have heartily agreed. But that wasn't the question.