5 ms·

> Because this is leaning on blaming to UK for everything the US is doing to itself an awful lot. Hasn't the UK had a culture of surveillance (the famous CCTV

by xienze 2mo ago

> Because this is leaning on blaming to UK for everything the US is doing to itself an awful lot. Hasn't the UK had a culture of surveillance (the famous CCTV cameras) and arresting people over online wrongthink for quite some time though? Who inspired who?

foldr 2mo ago
No, not really. This is a narrative that is pushed by certain segments of the American right (and some of their UK allies). It easily dominates online discussion in an environment where the majority of people posting have no direct experience of life in the UK. Actual life in the UK is very unlike what you would imagine on the basis of reading HN threads, or Elon Musk’s twitter feed. I suspect that most people with first hand knowledge have simply given up trying to contribute to HN threads about the UK. There is plenty of legitimate criticism to be made of the UK, but here (as you can see from the title) the discourse has degraded to such an extent that the mythically awful UK is held responsible even for bad laws passed by American legislature.
- flir 2mo ago
  No disagreement here, but I suppose it's a useful rhetorical trick. Paint something you don't like as "foreign". I've certainly seen Brits use a comparison with the Great Firewall of China to argue against various state surveillance projects.
- phatfish 2mo ago
  Yup, apparently people that live their lives in the UK are the indoctrinated ones. Not the majority of the HN crowd that consume whatever the algorithm feeds them and think they are enlightened.
- gunsle 2mo ago
  Right, so there isn’t currently hundreds of people in UK jails for simply saying “bad words” online? That must be algorithmic misinformation slop too huh?
  - foldr 2mo ago
    Where are you getting that figure from?
watwut 2mo ago
No it did not. Online right wing is trying to push narrative that is all.
- Flere-Imsaho 2mo ago
  > No it did not. Online right wing is trying to push narrative that is all. It's sad that people don't see what's so obviously happening in the uk. Censorship is alive and well in the uk, and there are plans afoot to further the control of the online world.
  - happymellon 2mo ago
    Try reading the whole thing again. We know there is censorship. We do not like the censorship. Americans fund the censorship. Americans pass laws for censorship. Americans fund censorship overseas. UK passes law for censorship. Americans - See it's the UK fault. That is the part we are discussing.
  - phatfish 2mo ago
    The online world is trash, democracy existed before the internet and it will exist after it becomes an AI slop playground. If you are worried age gates tracking you just speak to people in the real world?
- account42 2mo ago
  Is your privacy really worth giving up to "own the right"?
- roenxi 2mo ago
  The UK's culture on this stuff has been relatively famous since Orwell coined the term thoughtcrime. The major advantage the US has over the UK historically has been the oceans, but an interesting secondary one is the US was built by people who seemed to have a healthy fear of the extended groupthink sessions that the UK tends to fall into. It's always been something of a problem given how insular their upper class is. The UK was an amazing leader on liberty in the days when absolute monarchies were the assumed default government, but their free speech standards are a long way from exemplary in modern times.
happymellon 2mo ago
The US has a history of arrests over "wrong think" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/18/facebook-comments-arrest-prosecution https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/18/facebook-com... https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/new-hampshire-police-arrested-man-being-mean-them-internet https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/new-hampshire-police-a... https://www.fire.org/news/lawsuit-ex-cop-sues-after-spending-37-days-jail-sharing-meme-following-charlie-kirk-murder https://www.fire.org/news/lawsuit-ex-cop-sues-after-spending...
- inigyou 2mo ago
  This. The UK "wrongthink arrests" were for stuff like calling for a building full of people to be burned down. While the US arrests you for criticising the police chief.
  - hdgvhicv 2mo ago
    The US rate people for quoting a murder victim and not having the right level of performative grief not seen since Eva Peron died.
  - like_any_other 2mo ago
    The UK arrests were also for stickers with: slogans such as “Reject white guilt”, “Nationalism is nurture”, “We will be a minority in our homeland by 2066” and “Diversity – designed to fail, built to replace” - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/16/uk-man-with-hitler-picture-used-sticker-campaign-to-stir-racial-hatred-court-told https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/16/uk-man-with-... "Stirring up racial hatred", even merely possessing material that could do so, is a crime in the UK: https://www.thelawpages.com/criminal-offence/Possessing-racially-inflammatory-material/-for-display/publication/distribution-with-intent/likely-to-stir-up-racial-hatred-496-9.law https://www.thelawpages.com/criminal-offence/Possessing-raci... Burning the Koran is also illegal: https://spectator.com/article/england-now-has-a-blasphemy-law/ https://spectator.com/article/england-now-has-a-blasphemy-la... Viewing "far-right propaganda" carries a 15 year jail sentence: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/03/amber-rudd-viewers-of-online-terrorist-material-face-15-years-in-jail https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/03/amber-rudd-v... True factual statements such as "young white girls are being raped by these grooming gangs" come with a nearly 1-year jail term: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce328p9330eo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce328p9330eo Note that most of the time, articles are happy to omit actual quotes, instead parroting the prosecution's description of the speech in question, using vague terms such as "racially aggravated comments" or "inciting racial hatred": https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3rq8r4jdgno https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3rq8r4jdgno https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68086012 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68086012 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68074858 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68074858

by xienze 2mo ago

foldr 2mo ago

No, not really. This is a narrative that is pushed by certain segments of the American right (and some of their UK allies). It easily dominates online discussion in an environment where the majority of people posting have no direct experience of life in the UK. Actual life in the UK is very unlike what you would imagine on the basis of reading HN threads, or Elon Musk’s twitter feed. I suspect that most people with first hand knowledge have simply given up trying to contribute to HN threads about the UK. There is plenty of legitimate criticism to be made of the UK, but here (as you can see from the title) the discourse has degraded to such an extent that the mythically awful UK is held responsible even for bad laws passed by American legislature.

flir 2mo ago
No disagreement here, but I suppose it's a useful rhetorical trick. Paint something you don't like as "foreign". I've certainly seen Brits use a comparison with the Great Firewall of China to argue against various state surveillance projects.
phatfish 2mo ago
Yup, apparently people that live their lives in the UK are the indoctrinated ones. Not the majority of the HN crowd that consume whatever the algorithm feeds them and think they are enlightened.
gunsle 2mo ago
Right, so there isn’t currently hundreds of people in UK jails for simply saying “bad words” online? That must be algorithmic misinformation slop too huh?
- foldr 2mo ago
  Where are you getting that figure from?

watwut 2mo ago

No it did not. Online right wing is trying to push narrative that is all.

Flere-Imsaho 2mo ago
> No it did not. Online right wing is trying to push narrative that is all. It's sad that people don't see what's so obviously happening in the uk. Censorship is alive and well in the uk, and there are plans afoot to further the control of the online world.
- happymellon 2mo ago
  Try reading the whole thing again. We know there is censorship. We do not like the censorship. Americans fund the censorship. Americans pass laws for censorship. Americans fund censorship overseas. UK passes law for censorship. Americans - See it's the UK fault. That is the part we are discussing.
- phatfish 2mo ago
  The online world is trash, democracy existed before the internet and it will exist after it becomes an AI slop playground. If you are worried age gates tracking you just speak to people in the real world?
account42 2mo ago
Is your privacy really worth giving up to "own the right"?
roenxi 2mo ago
The UK's culture on this stuff has been relatively famous since Orwell coined the term thoughtcrime. The major advantage the US has over the UK historically has been the oceans, but an interesting secondary one is the US was built by people who seemed to have a healthy fear of the extended groupthink sessions that the UK tends to fall into. It's always been something of a problem given how insular their upper class is. The UK was an amazing leader on liberty in the days when absolute monarchies were the assumed default government, but their free speech standards are a long way from exemplary in modern times.

happymellon 2mo ago

The US has a history of arrests over "wrong think" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/18/facebook-comments-arrest-prosecution https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/18/facebook-com... https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/new-hampshire-police-arrested-man-being-mean-them-internet https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/new-hampshire-police-a... https://www.fire.org/news/lawsuit-ex-cop-sues-after-spending-37-days-jail-sharing-meme-following-charlie-kirk-murder https://www.fire.org/news/lawsuit-ex-cop-sues-after-spending...

inigyou 2mo ago
This. The UK "wrongthink arrests" were for stuff like calling for a building full of people to be burned down. While the US arrests you for criticising the police chief.
- hdgvhicv 2mo ago
  The US rate people for quoting a murder victim and not having the right level of performative grief not seen since Eva Peron died.
- like_any_other 2mo ago
  The UK arrests were also for stickers with: slogans such as “Reject white guilt”, “Nationalism is nurture”, “We will be a minority in our homeland by 2066” and “Diversity – designed to fail, built to replace” - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/16/uk-man-with-hitler-picture-used-sticker-campaign-to-stir-racial-hatred-court-told https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/16/uk-man-with-... "Stirring up racial hatred", even merely possessing material that could do so, is a crime in the UK: https://www.thelawpages.com/criminal-offence/Possessing-racially-inflammatory-material/-for-display/publication/distribution-with-intent/likely-to-stir-up-racial-hatred-496-9.law https://www.thelawpages.com/criminal-offence/Possessing-raci... Burning the Koran is also illegal: https://spectator.com/article/england-now-has-a-blasphemy-law/ https://spectator.com/article/england-now-has-a-blasphemy-la... Viewing "far-right propaganda" carries a 15 year jail sentence: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/03/amber-rudd-viewers-of-online-terrorist-material-face-15-years-in-jail https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/03/amber-rudd-v... True factual statements such as "young white girls are being raped by these grooming gangs" come with a nearly 1-year jail term: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce328p9330eo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce328p9330eo Note that most of the time, articles are happy to omit actual quotes, instead parroting the prosecution's description of the speech in question, using vague terms such as "racially aggravated comments" or "inciting racial hatred": https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3rq8r4jdgno https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3rq8r4jdgno https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68086012 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68086012 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68074858 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-68074858