3 ms·

There doesn't need to be any kind of technical solution. If a telemarketer wants to sell something, they must declare the name of their company. The company nam

by vjk800 2mo ago

There doesn't need to be any kind of technical solution. If a telemarketer wants to sell something, they must declare the name of their company. The company name can be reported to police (or whatever authorities are going to handle this) who can then fine the telemarketers.

eru 2mo ago
What if the business says 'That wasn't me?' I mean, everyone can call anyone and name any company already.
- ValentinPearce 2mo ago
  I assume ownership of the caller's number can be logged/checked. I haven't had too much trouble with telemarketers lately but there is a crowdsourced app in France called Saracroche that can be easily installed on your phone and blocks spam numbers by becoming the caller id service. You can also use the app to report a number and help build the huge database.
  - eru 2mo ago
    > I assume ownership of the caller's number can be logged/checked. Alas, last time I checked numbers were something that was announced in-band, so it could be trivially faked by the caller. But I'm not sure if that's still true.
    - Sayrus 2mo ago
      Not in the domain at all but wasn't this the purpose of STIR/SHAKEN but the biggest blocker was that large telcos hadn't deployed it? I think Android and iOS dialer app show you whether there was Caller ID Verification done or not so you may be able to drop anything unverified.
    - vbernat 2mo ago
      In France, thanks to STIR/SHAKEN, this is not possible any more for the fixed phone numbering plans (and telemarketers have to register their phone numbers in a subset of this numbering plan). For mobile lines, this is still not 100% implemented due to the difficulty of handling roaming, but I think it is becoming efficient as I didn't have a telemarketer with a mobile number since a long time (they seem to hide their number now).
- petu 2mo ago
  Phone number always belongs/registered to someone?
  - eru 2mo ago
    Alas, last time I checked numbers were something that was announced in-band, so it could be trivially faked by the caller. But I'm not sure if that's still true.
    - petu 2mo ago
      Spoofing a number can be a felony on it's own. Even if there's no explicit laws around that, who's getting billed for the calls?
- XorNot 2mo ago
  That's where we can actually use technical solutions though: businesses shouldn't be able to place calls without cryptographically signing their origination with a key derived from their business registration. Phone calls are essentially end to end voip these days so we have the ability to deliver that metadata.
- KSteffensen 2mo ago
  Here in Denmark there is no block list, but you have to explicitly opt-in to receiving telemarketing calls. By default, it's illegal to call you. I never opt-in to anything. If I do get a call, I usually ask for the callers employee name and employee ID, their supervisors name and employee ID and the name of the company. Then I point out that it is illegal to call me and ask for them to get my name off their list. It's been years since I've gotten any sort of telemarketing or survey call.
lifestyleguru 2mo ago
Most EU countries implemented registration of every mobile number with personal details and national id number. Yet in the same countries there exist entire office buildings with tens of people receiving salaries for spam/scam/cold calling, and they are fully anonymous?!
Kon5ole 2mo ago
>The company name can be reported to police (or whatever authorities are going to handle this) who can then fine the telemarketers. This kind of happens today, but I think the problem is too big. You'll need to employ thousands to process all the complaints and by the time you issue a fine, the company has closed and a new one has started.
- showsover 2mo ago
  That's why you go after the people who run the company if they do that.
  - sumedh 2mo ago
    How do you know who runs a company, aren't some European countries tax havens who dont share that information?
  - inferniac 2mo ago
    So they setup an LLC, or the owner is a homeless guy who signed the paper for $50, or dozens of other options you could do to avoid I wonder how enforceable that France thing will be
    - kijin 2mo ago
      Anti-spam measures work by increasing cost and friction for spammers, not by stopping them completely. A burner LLC costs more than a burner SIM card, so it's a step in the right direction.
- druskacik 2mo ago
  > This kind of happens today What do you report to the police if the act isn't illegal?
  - kijin 2mo ago
    In some countries, it is illegal to make unsolicited calls to a number that is on an official "do not call" list. Any number on that list is effectively a honeypot. I guess you could even distribute an app that automates the whole process: put your number on the list, log incoming calls, aggregate the data and report them in batches large enough to catch the government's attention.
PunchyHamster 2mo ago
I don't want to sit thru the phone call just to get the company name to report, that can also be just their competitor name they want to sink.
aitchnyu 2mo ago
Same for online ads. Ads should take you to a landing page saying Google served it for ShadyGambling Inc, Enemystan/Enemypur and clicking further will take you to Play Store.
wpietri 2mo ago
And if they don't declare the name of the company? There are a lot of shady people out there. Plenty of them will happily call and give a fake name, or just something vague that sounds important, like, "This is Rachel from cardholder services". So it turns out we really do need a technical solution, which is unforgeable and easily traceable access to the telephone network. Plus robust enforcement of consumer laws, something wildly out of fashion in the US.
- amiga386 2mo ago
  > we really do need a technical solution, which is unforgeable and easily traceable access to the telephone network We have that, but it's insufficient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STIR/SHAKEN#Limitations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STIR/SHAKEN#Limitations Although STIR/SHAKEN is frequently described as a "caller ID authentication technology", it does not authenticate any caller ID per se. Instead, it authenticates the originating carrier, but that solves a different problem. [...] It critically relies on a set of trusted certificate authorities (CAs) to manage digital certificates. In the USA, several telecom companies were appointed by the FCC as the CAs. They serve as the root of the trust. All other telcos, must not only trust these CAs but also pay them for compliance with STIR/SHAKEN, typically based on a percentage of their annual revenue. The reliance on trusted third parties severely limits STIR/SHAKEN to work across borders. > Plus robust enforcement of consumer laws, something wildly out of fashion in the US. Quite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRACED_Act#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRACED_Act#Criticism The act requires FCC referrals to DOJ for willful robocall fraud. In the half-decade since enactment, with billions of scam calls and billions of dollars in consumer losses, the FCC made less than a dozen referrals.
ChrisMarshallNY 2mo ago
Sounds like a great way for unscrupulous companies to attack their competitors. First, I am 100% for this legislation, but, as has been mentioned numerous times, here, it needs to be enforced. We probably also need to marry it with a technical solution, that ensures that unverified numbers cannot be used (no spoofing possible). Maybe a national "blacklist" of bad numbers, with a "three strikes and you're out" kind of thing. But, human nature, that nasty old spoiler, is likely to raise its ugly head. I suspect this would be a great place for corruption to take hold.
- pmontra 2mo ago
  I'm sure that the phone operators will not be happy about such a blacklist: they sell those numbers. Furthermore, they profit from spam calls in several ways.

by vjk800 2mo ago

eru 2mo ago

What if the business says 'That wasn't me?' I mean, everyone can call anyone and name any company already.

ValentinPearce 2mo ago
I assume ownership of the caller's number can be logged/checked. I haven't had too much trouble with telemarketers lately but there is a crowdsourced app in France called Saracroche that can be easily installed on your phone and blocks spam numbers by becoming the caller id service. You can also use the app to report a number and help build the huge database.
- eru 2mo ago
  > I assume ownership of the caller's number can be logged/checked. Alas, last time I checked numbers were something that was announced in-band, so it could be trivially faked by the caller. But I'm not sure if that's still true.
  - Sayrus 2mo ago
    Not in the domain at all but wasn't this the purpose of STIR/SHAKEN but the biggest blocker was that large telcos hadn't deployed it? I think Android and iOS dialer app show you whether there was Caller ID Verification done or not so you may be able to drop anything unverified.
  - vbernat 2mo ago
    In France, thanks to STIR/SHAKEN, this is not possible any more for the fixed phone numbering plans (and telemarketers have to register their phone numbers in a subset of this numbering plan). For mobile lines, this is still not 100% implemented due to the difficulty of handling roaming, but I think it is becoming efficient as I didn't have a telemarketer with a mobile number since a long time (they seem to hide their number now).
petu 2mo ago
Phone number always belongs/registered to someone?
- eru 2mo ago
  Alas, last time I checked numbers were something that was announced in-band, so it could be trivially faked by the caller. But I'm not sure if that's still true.
  - petu 2mo ago
    Spoofing a number can be a felony on it's own. Even if there's no explicit laws around that, who's getting billed for the calls?
XorNot 2mo ago
That's where we can actually use technical solutions though: businesses shouldn't be able to place calls without cryptographically signing their origination with a key derived from their business registration. Phone calls are essentially end to end voip these days so we have the ability to deliver that metadata.
KSteffensen 2mo ago
Here in Denmark there is no block list, but you have to explicitly opt-in to receiving telemarketing calls. By default, it's illegal to call you. I never opt-in to anything. If I do get a call, I usually ask for the callers employee name and employee ID, their supervisors name and employee ID and the name of the company. Then I point out that it is illegal to call me and ask for them to get my name off their list. It's been years since I've gotten any sort of telemarketing or survey call.

lifestyleguru 2mo ago

Most EU countries implemented registration of every mobile number with personal details and national id number. Yet in the same countries there exist entire office buildings with tens of people receiving salaries for spam/scam/cold calling, and they are fully anonymous?!

Kon5ole 2mo ago

>The company name can be reported to police (or whatever authorities are going to handle this) who can then fine the telemarketers. This kind of happens today, but I think the problem is too big. You'll need to employ thousands to process all the complaints and by the time you issue a fine, the company has closed and a new one has started.

showsover 2mo ago
That's why you go after the people who run the company if they do that.
- sumedh 2mo ago
  How do you know who runs a company, aren't some European countries tax havens who dont share that information?
- inferniac 2mo ago
  So they setup an LLC, or the owner is a homeless guy who signed the paper for $50, or dozens of other options you could do to avoid I wonder how enforceable that France thing will be
  - kijin 2mo ago
    Anti-spam measures work by increasing cost and friction for spammers, not by stopping them completely. A burner LLC costs more than a burner SIM card, so it's a step in the right direction.
druskacik 2mo ago
> This kind of happens today What do you report to the police if the act isn't illegal?
- kijin 2mo ago
  In some countries, it is illegal to make unsolicited calls to a number that is on an official "do not call" list. Any number on that list is effectively a honeypot. I guess you could even distribute an app that automates the whole process: put your number on the list, log incoming calls, aggregate the data and report them in batches large enough to catch the government's attention.

PunchyHamster 2mo ago

I don't want to sit thru the phone call just to get the company name to report, that can also be just their competitor name they want to sink.

aitchnyu 2mo ago

Same for online ads. Ads should take you to a landing page saying Google served it for ShadyGambling Inc, Enemystan/Enemypur and clicking further will take you to Play Store.

wpietri 2mo ago

And if they don't declare the name of the company? There are a lot of shady people out there. Plenty of them will happily call and give a fake name, or just something vague that sounds important, like, "This is Rachel from cardholder services". So it turns out we really do need a technical solution, which is unforgeable and easily traceable access to the telephone network. Plus robust enforcement of consumer laws, something wildly out of fashion in the US.

amiga386 2mo ago
> we really do need a technical solution, which is unforgeable and easily traceable access to the telephone network We have that, but it's insufficient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STIR/SHAKEN#Limitations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STIR/SHAKEN#Limitations Although STIR/SHAKEN is frequently described as a "caller ID authentication technology", it does not authenticate any caller ID per se. Instead, it authenticates the originating carrier, but that solves a different problem. [...] It critically relies on a set of trusted certificate authorities (CAs) to manage digital certificates. In the USA, several telecom companies were appointed by the FCC as the CAs. They serve as the root of the trust. All other telcos, must not only trust these CAs but also pay them for compliance with STIR/SHAKEN, typically based on a percentage of their annual revenue. The reliance on trusted third parties severely limits STIR/SHAKEN to work across borders. > Plus robust enforcement of consumer laws, something wildly out of fashion in the US. Quite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRACED_Act#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRACED_Act#Criticism The act requires FCC referrals to DOJ for willful robocall fraud. In the half-decade since enactment, with billions of scam calls and billions of dollars in consumer losses, the FCC made less than a dozen referrals.

ChrisMarshallNY 2mo ago

Sounds like a great way for unscrupulous companies to attack their competitors. First, I am 100% for this legislation, but, as has been mentioned numerous times, here, it needs to be enforced. We probably also need to marry it with a technical solution, that ensures that unverified numbers cannot be used (no spoofing possible). Maybe a national "blacklist" of bad numbers, with a "three strikes and you're out" kind of thing. But, human nature, that nasty old spoiler, is likely to raise its ugly head. I suspect this would be a great place for corruption to take hold.

pmontra 2mo ago
I'm sure that the phone operators will not be happy about such a blacklist: they sell those numbers. Furthermore, they profit from spam calls in several ways.