4 ms·

Is there a relationship between how good a programming language is for coding agents and how popular it is among humans? If so, wouldn't Python be the best lang

Is there a relationship between how good a programming language is for coding agents and how popular it is among humans? If so, wouldn't Python be the best language for agents, since it's is the most popular (and hence has the most context available for models)?

throw-the-towel 2mo ago
As much as I love Python, JavaScript (including TypeScript) is probably more popular.
- frollogaston 2mo ago
  That and JS code is more readily available in the source of tons of webpages, not hidden away in some backend
  - maleldil 2mo ago
    Wouldn't most frontend JS in Web page sources be minified?
    - frollogaston 2mo ago
      The logic is still there, it's not meant as obfuscation. Also plenty of sites don't minify cause that involves a whole toolchain.
- DarkContinent 2mo ago
  I was going off this for popularity: https://stackoverflow.blog/2023/01/26/comparing-tag-trends-with-our-most-loved-programming-languages/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2023/01/26/comparing-tag-trends-w...
Sha1rholder 2mo ago
There is definitely a relationship. But I personally believe that once the training corpus reaches a certain scale, the returns exhibit diminishing marginal effects, to the point that multiplying the data volume cannot surpass something essential inherent in language design. (Asked an LLM to help me with the translation, so forgive my expression)
3eb7988a1663 2mo ago
Pick something slightly esoteric (eg Haskell) and the quality of public code is very high, because you only have enthusiasts writing it. Choose something taught in schools (Python) and you are going to find 10,000 traveling salesmen homework problems and Django todo applications. Not sure how you thread the needle on the quality vs quantity dynamic.
- serf 2mo ago
  >Pick something slightly esoteric (eg Haskell) and the quality of public code is very high, because you only have enthusiasts writing it. that and the language supports (enforces) good decision making; static typing w/ inference and a functional style as a first class concept. which then rolls into the same result : higher quality code available.
- scotty79 2mo ago
  Quantity, it seems is a quality in itself.
- msgcatalog 2mo ago
  Your point is a good one: Exotic, difficult languages attract enthusiasts with deeper skills than a median developer. Haskell also has a confounding issue: Because of its focus on research and experimentation, standard best practices don't exist like they do in languages optimized for real-world use. Because there are few community guidelines, engineering practices vary widely, and unfortunately at the same time, Haskell's public codebase resources are small. To see this playing out, check out Haskell discussions about choosing a SQL library, effect system, monad transformer stack, or web framework. The answers are all over the map because that diversity is baked into Haskell's culture and practice.
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    Was going to ask what is the Numpy equivalent in Haskell. Cause Python has a thousand decent examples of how to do everything you might want to do in Numpy.
serf 2mo ago
there is a relationship there, but there is also a relationship to the safety of the language and the guard rails in place. it's a lot harder to experience an agent telling you with certainty that something incomplete is totally finished if there is a comprehensive test suite, a hard failing compiler, a strict type system, etc. LLMs like to produce a lot of JS and python that silently fails in a graceful way -- why is that? because those languages support that kind of a failure. when using something like go/rust the LLMs are more likely to re-iterate rather than declaring a victory when they get a strict compiler barking in their face, refusing to output.

throw-the-towel 2mo ago

As much as I love Python, JavaScript (including TypeScript) is probably more popular.

frollogaston 2mo ago
That and JS code is more readily available in the source of tons of webpages, not hidden away in some backend
- maleldil 2mo ago
  Wouldn't most frontend JS in Web page sources be minified?
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    The logic is still there, it's not meant as obfuscation. Also plenty of sites don't minify cause that involves a whole toolchain.
DarkContinent 2mo ago
I was going off this for popularity: https://stackoverflow.blog/2023/01/26/comparing-tag-trends-with-our-most-loved-programming-languages/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2023/01/26/comparing-tag-trends-w...

Sha1rholder 2mo ago

There is definitely a relationship. But I personally believe that once the training corpus reaches a certain scale, the returns exhibit diminishing marginal effects, to the point that multiplying the data volume cannot surpass something essential inherent in language design. (Asked an LLM to help me with the translation, so forgive my expression)

3eb7988a1663 2mo ago

Pick something slightly esoteric (eg Haskell) and the quality of public code is very high, because you only have enthusiasts writing it. Choose something taught in schools (Python) and you are going to find 10,000 traveling salesmen homework problems and Django todo applications. Not sure how you thread the needle on the quality vs quantity dynamic.

serf 2mo ago
>Pick something slightly esoteric (eg Haskell) and the quality of public code is very high, because you only have enthusiasts writing it. that and the language supports (enforces) good decision making; static typing w/ inference and a functional style as a first class concept. which then rolls into the same result : higher quality code available.
scotty79 2mo ago
Quantity, it seems is a quality in itself.
msgcatalog 2mo ago
Your point is a good one: Exotic, difficult languages attract enthusiasts with deeper skills than a median developer. Haskell also has a confounding issue: Because of its focus on research and experimentation, standard best practices don't exist like they do in languages optimized for real-world use. Because there are few community guidelines, engineering practices vary widely, and unfortunately at the same time, Haskell's public codebase resources are small. To see this playing out, check out Haskell discussions about choosing a SQL library, effect system, monad transformer stack, or web framework. The answers are all over the map because that diversity is baked into Haskell's culture and practice.
- frollogaston 2mo ago
  Was going to ask what is the Numpy equivalent in Haskell. Cause Python has a thousand decent examples of how to do everything you might want to do in Numpy.

serf 2mo ago

there is a relationship there, but there is also a relationship to the safety of the language and the guard rails in place. it's a lot harder to experience an agent telling you with certainty that something incomplete is totally finished if there is a comprehensive test suite, a hard failing compiler, a strict type system, etc. LLMs like to produce a lot of JS and python that silently fails in a graceful way -- why is that? because those languages support that kind of a failure. when using something like go/rust the LLMs are more likely to re-iterate rather than declaring a victory when they get a strict compiler barking in their face, refusing to output.