4 ms·

Or maybe we're at the point where we'll go to prison because of unjust laws.

by blurbleblurble 2mo ago

otterley 2mo ago
You first!
- blurbleblurble 2mo ago
  With all due respect I sense that you might be neglecting the big picture. Unjust laws, slopped out illegal orders and an extreme activist court are all in play.
  - otterley 2mo ago
    Those are valid opinions. However, I also see a lot of bluster here about going to prison for their beliefs from people who wouldn't last a minute behind bars.
    - iamnothere 2mo ago
      Given your comment history, I suspect that you are sympathetic to these laws and you’re trying to prevent people from opposing them, using your “friendly advice” as cover. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people in the US willing to go to jail (or worse) for their beliefs. It’s kind of the founding mythology of the nation. US history is full of people who successfully challenged violations of their rights and government overreach. Success isn’t guaranteed, sure. It never is. But cowering in fear because the tyrants might put you behind bars is downright un-American.
      - otterley 2mo ago
        Not at all! I think these laws are dumb and I don't want my state to pass one. But when I play, I play to win. Openly thumbing one's nose at the courts and the state is rarely a winning strategy. The way to win is through the democratic process: persuading elected officials to take your side. That, in turn, requires persuading the public to take your side.
        iamnothere 2mo ago
        Ok, fine, but what you fail to recognize that taking a loud public stance against tyranny provides cover for people who are too scared to stand up for their beliefs. Successful civil rights activism took place in an environment where people were being arrested, beaten, and even killed for standing up for what is right. You could even argue that this created fertile ground for the success of the movement. Failures of justice create hardened activists and support networks, and eventually public support.
        otterley 2mo ago
        Comparing the "oppression" of a programmer who is forbidden from distributing an OS that fails to ask the user's age to the actual suffering of Black people in the U.S., who were regularly discriminated against and even lynched, is ridiculous. You'll never persuade ordinary people of this, that way.
        iamnothere 2mo ago
        Average people will come around when they start passing laws requiring deanonymization and arresting journalists and critics. (The latter is already happening, but I expect this to accelerate in the future.) Need to lay the groundwork for opposition now, and that means rallying dedicated people to the cause.
        blurbleblurble 2mo ago
        Since when was surveillance disconnected from civil rights? Since never.
        DennisP 2mo ago
        On the contrary, civil disobedience involves openly thumbing your nose at the state, and it has a long history of successes. Going to the courts instead of the legislature is another strategy that often wins. This is how Bernstein ended export restrictions on cryptography, by suing the government on constitutional grounds rather than trying to persuade legislators.
    - lrvick 2mo ago
      People used to have to die in masses for freedoms in this country. If the worst thing one could face for defending freedoms is some jail time until bail gets posted while the law determines their innocence then anyone who caves to pressure anyway is a complete coward. And, since you seem to be making assumptions about what people you know nothing about could or could not hypothetically handle, maybe look a bit closer at my history. I have survived WAY harder shit than sitting in an air conditioned box with 3 squares a day for doing what I thought was right, so even if the threat of jail was credible, it would not deter me. It is the bluster of people that think I even could be jailed for something like this that I am most amused by. Truly it is fascinating and a bit sad how much fear there is in this thread over upsetting some state level officials.

Or maybe we're at the point where we'll go to prison because of unjust laws.

otterley 2mo ago

You first!

blurbleblurble 2mo ago
With all due respect I sense that you might be neglecting the big picture. Unjust laws, slopped out illegal orders and an extreme activist court are all in play.
- otterley 2mo ago
  Those are valid opinions. However, I also see a lot of bluster here about going to prison for their beliefs from people who wouldn't last a minute behind bars.
  - iamnothere 2mo ago
    Given your comment history, I suspect that you are sympathetic to these laws and you’re trying to prevent people from opposing them, using your “friendly advice” as cover. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people in the US willing to go to jail (or worse) for their beliefs. It’s kind of the founding mythology of the nation. US history is full of people who successfully challenged violations of their rights and government overreach. Success isn’t guaranteed, sure. It never is. But cowering in fear because the tyrants might put you behind bars is downright un-American.
    - otterley 2mo ago
      Not at all! I think these laws are dumb and I don't want my state to pass one. But when I play, I play to win. Openly thumbing one's nose at the courts and the state is rarely a winning strategy. The way to win is through the democratic process: persuading elected officials to take your side. That, in turn, requires persuading the public to take your side.
      - iamnothere 2mo ago
        Ok, fine, but what you fail to recognize that taking a loud public stance against tyranny provides cover for people who are too scared to stand up for their beliefs. Successful civil rights activism took place in an environment where people were being arrested, beaten, and even killed for standing up for what is right. You could even argue that this created fertile ground for the success of the movement. Failures of justice create hardened activists and support networks, and eventually public support.
        otterley 2mo ago
        Comparing the "oppression" of a programmer who is forbidden from distributing an OS that fails to ask the user's age to the actual suffering of Black people in the U.S., who were regularly discriminated against and even lynched, is ridiculous. You'll never persuade ordinary people of this, that way.
        iamnothere 2mo ago
        Average people will come around when they start passing laws requiring deanonymization and arresting journalists and critics. (The latter is already happening, but I expect this to accelerate in the future.) Need to lay the groundwork for opposition now, and that means rallying dedicated people to the cause.
        blurbleblurble 2mo ago
        Since when was surveillance disconnected from civil rights? Since never.
      - DennisP 2mo ago
        On the contrary, civil disobedience involves openly thumbing your nose at the state, and it has a long history of successes. Going to the courts instead of the legislature is another strategy that often wins. This is how Bernstein ended export restrictions on cryptography, by suing the government on constitutional grounds rather than trying to persuade legislators.
  - lrvick 2mo ago
    People used to have to die in masses for freedoms in this country. If the worst thing one could face for defending freedoms is some jail time until bail gets posted while the law determines their innocence then anyone who caves to pressure anyway is a complete coward. And, since you seem to be making assumptions about what people you know nothing about could or could not hypothetically handle, maybe look a bit closer at my history. I have survived WAY harder shit than sitting in an air conditioned box with 3 squares a day for doing what I thought was right, so even if the threat of jail was credible, it would not deter me. It is the bluster of people that think I even could be jailed for something like this that I am most amused by. Truly it is fascinating and a bit sad how much fear there is in this thread over upsetting some state level officials.