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A California Program Is Bringing Down the Cost of Heat Pumps by Buying Bulk
- magicalhippo 2mo agoI'm always amazed at how much these costs in the US. Wild prices even for a Norwegian. We have a two-story home half his size, but one minisplit upstairs and one downstairs would be $3-4000 installed, combined, and that's upper or top-end models. The ones I got would easily handle a house of his size.
- kylehotchkiss 2mo agoIf there's ductwork, it's something being installed into the building that has to pass inspections. It's not just one or two holes in the walls that need to be sealed.
- magicalhippo 2mo agoBut the article said he used existing ductwork, and yet it ended up at $14k. The new heat pump system cost roughly $14,500 and provides heating and cooling via ductwork that was already in place.
- amluto 2mo agoNo one in their right mind runs ductwork between the interior and exterior of the building in residential installations. There’s power, possible control wiring, and two or (in exotic installations) three refrigerant pipes. (In a more enlightened world, I think that a system with the refrigerant fully contained within the outdoor unit that uses plain water as the heat exchange fluid could make a lot of sense, and this would not change the pipe situation.)
- dlcarrier 2mo agoIt's one of the more protectionist industries in the US. At least it's not as bad as elevators, where imported ones have to be taken apart, so they can be reassembled by approved contractors.
- donavanm 2mo agoSame in Australia/East Asia generally. Had a mid range daiken 3kw unit installed upstairs last summer; $2500 AUD and ~5 man hours to install including roof access and exterior wall mounting. A bigger 7kw multi head unit would have been about $6-7k AUD but required awkward attic and wall access. Installed prices in the US are pretty silly. Theres a bourgeoning set of DIY units that come precharged. But even those are pricey compared to the rest of the world.
- Tostino 2mo agoJust FYI, there's no reason at all to buy the DIY kits over just a regular mini split. The difference is DIY kits come with the lines pre-vacuumed and with seals on the end of them. So when you finally connect everything, the lines don't need a vacuum drawn on them prior to allowing the refrigerant into them. A vacuum pump costs about $100. Just get a regular cheap mini split and vacuum the lines yourself, and save $1,000 or more.
- donavanm 2mo agoYeah, vaguely aware that you could diy the entire setup with refrigerant etc. But its not relevant at local prices here in AU. One of the interesting things I noticed here is that manufacturers are providing exchangers and head units that can reuse existing pipes. Makes sense for retrofit/upgrades where running pipes through utility spaces and bulkheads is a significant labor cost.
- Tostino 2mo agoWell it does absolutely affect the price if you are willing to do it yourself. You don't need to actually touch any refrigerants. They are all preloaded in all the mini splits for sale. You just need to get the air out of the lines so it doesn't mix with the refrigerant. If I were to have it installed, just about any "professional" will totally overcharge here in the US too.
- magicalhippo 2mo ago
- kylehotchkiss 2mo agoWhy can't we do this for lumber. And drywall. And plumbing. And wires.
- quickthrowman 2mo agoDimensional lumber, gypsum board, plumbing pipe, and electrical conductors are commodities. Heat pumps are not. There’s no need to subsidize commodity items, there’s plenty of competition to keep prices reasonable barring any massive supply/demand shifts.
- cranky908canuck 2mo agoCan't speak to the rest, but lumber has had significant import tariffs to the US for decades. So it doesn't seem as if relative affordability of that commodity is an issue (at least for the last four decades). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_softwood_lumber_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_s...
- OldSchool 2mo agoHeat pumps are probably vastly under-installed in the southern part of the US because natural gas has been cheap and plentiful. If you live where natural gas isn't available your fuel option is propane. Propane tracks the price of gasoline, perhaps slightly lower in my experience. Here in Texas, electricity is only about $0.11/KWH so heat pumps work out like this: Heat Pump 5.0 COP : $6.50 per MMBtu Natural Gas : $12 - $15 per MMBtu Propane at $3.00 / gallon : $32 per MMBtu The unfortunate characteristic of heat pumps is that they become less efficient the more you need them, i.e. cold weather, but if weather is generally above freezing, heat pumps are close to their spec range that is based on 47F outdoor temperature. A buried heat exchanger or a water well makes it a weather-proof geothermal system- this seems like the ideal; if you also need air conditioning it will make your cooling more efficient too.
- SergeyKa 2mo agoCalifornia PG&E charges an average of $0.45/kWh. They know EVs are going to increase demand. They killed NEM1 and NEM2 to prevent folks from installing solar, and those with solar have to pay a monthly fee for the privilege of being connected. Heat pump my a$$.
- OldSchool 2mo agoYep, electricity cost kills its viability in California.
- jerlam 2mo agoAlso, old homes don't have the outlets for heat pumps. If you're lucky, it's just a breaker, wire, and outlet. If you're unlucky, it requires an electrical panel upgrade or worse.
- raincom 2mo agoIf they want to drive electric cars, they need a panel upgrade too. Just combine everything in one go.
- butvacuum 2mo agoa bit rich since california is probabaly a major reason the systems are expensive to begin with.
- exabrial 2mo agoWhat actually happened [probably], in California: A heatpump salesman has a buddy that is a government official. Has outdated models he needs to liquidate. Salesman guy needs to be richer. Government official can't take the money directly, but sure would like to fly on salesman guys' private jet when they go golfing. Meanwhile government official guy goes and buys a bunch of Salesman company stock and profits explode. Heatpumps should absolutely be the primary choice in the correct climates. But these deals are rarely good or efficient for a taxpayer.
- dlcarrier 2mo agoI'm amazed by how difficult it is to get modern variable-speed heat pumps in California. You're lucky to get a two-speed unit, but they're only marginally better than single-speed. We're stuck with 80's technology because there's literally a list of what you're allowed to install. They claim it's to only allow energy efficient units, but the list is dominated by older inefficient models. On top of that, you can't have just any contractor install it, they need to be certified to install heat pumps, and of course the ones who are certified will only install a heat pump they sell you. If you want a modern energy efficient heat pump in California, without waiting forever and paying several times list price, you're going to have to install it illegally.
- amluto 2mo agoAre you in the same California that I am? We have the same problem that the entire country has with mediocre, overpriced contractors. And we also have the same problem with ever-changing refrigerant rules. But heat pump availability seems just fine here, even for VRF systems. (Actually, VRF systems seem to be very common among new installations lately.)
- exabrial 2mo agoyou're about to be stuck with last-generation models that won't ever be updated, because the government has to renegotiate a contract with whomever and someone else will get upset and yada yada.
- gruez 2mo ago