2 ms·

> ObjC is still around but feels like legacy to me Yes, it feels like legacy because Apple is making it into legacy. Do you not admit that Apple's actions have

by lapcat 2mo ago

> ObjC is still around but feels like legacy to me Yes, it feels like legacy because Apple is making it into legacy. Do you not admit that Apple's actions have a profound effect on the relative adoption of the two languages among Apple developers? I would note that Swift is, like Objective-C, almost nonexistent outside of the Apple ecosystem, even though cross-platform use is possible. Developers who are deliberately outside the Apple ecosystem are generally not interested in a programming language controlled by Apple.

jottinger 2mo ago
And yes, you're absolutely right. Apple is making a choice here, and they absolutely have impact on what the developers "get to use" - much as .Net succeeds largely to vendor choices on Windows, too. And developers get to suck it up! That's the three axis thing again: vocation, art, job. Swift and .Net both got a huge kick from the "job" department. That's how it goes.
- lapcat 2mo ago
  > That's the three axis thing again: vocation, art, job. Swift and .Net both got a huge kick from the "job" department. Granted, Swift got a huge kick from the job department, but what you wrote said a lot more than that: > A language that makes life hard will not survive past the moment it can be replaced. > Objective-C was awkward as both art and job, and it thrived for fifteen years because it was the only door into the most lucrative developer ecosystem ever built; the moment Swift existed, it evaporated and now survives as a shadow, preserved in its descendant. Apparently you're admitting now that "the moment" is a gross exaggeration. You're also admitting that the "art" aspect is controversial, a matter of personal opinions that vary. I'm not sure why you claimed that Objective-C was "awkward as... job" even before Swift existed?
  - jottinger 2mo ago
    I wrote that it was awkward because IMO it was. That is indeed "my opinion" - I found the language it used to express concepts far more useful than the language itself, and found myself writing C++ far more often than ever wanting to write ObjC.
    - lapcat 2mo ago
      It's unclear whether your last comment is talking about the art or the job axis, the latter of which I just asked about. I certainly don't see how using C++ would be less awkward on the job for developers than ObjC when the job was primarily calling ObjC system API.
      - jottinger 2mo ago
        [dead]

by lapcat 2mo ago

jottinger 2mo ago

And yes, you're absolutely right. Apple is making a choice here, and they absolutely have impact on what the developers "get to use" - much as .Net succeeds largely to vendor choices on Windows, too. And developers get to suck it up! That's the three axis thing again: vocation, art, job. Swift and .Net both got a huge kick from the "job" department. That's how it goes.

lapcat 2mo ago
> That's the three axis thing again: vocation, art, job. Swift and .Net both got a huge kick from the "job" department. Granted, Swift got a huge kick from the job department, but what you wrote said a lot more than that: > A language that makes life hard will not survive past the moment it can be replaced. > Objective-C was awkward as both art and job, and it thrived for fifteen years because it was the only door into the most lucrative developer ecosystem ever built; the moment Swift existed, it evaporated and now survives as a shadow, preserved in its descendant. Apparently you're admitting now that "the moment" is a gross exaggeration. You're also admitting that the "art" aspect is controversial, a matter of personal opinions that vary. I'm not sure why you claimed that Objective-C was "awkward as... job" even before Swift existed?
- jottinger 2mo ago
  I wrote that it was awkward because IMO it was. That is indeed "my opinion" - I found the language it used to express concepts far more useful than the language itself, and found myself writing C++ far more often than ever wanting to write ObjC.
  - lapcat 2mo ago
    It's unclear whether your last comment is talking about the art or the job axis, the latter of which I just asked about. I certainly don't see how using C++ would be less awkward on the job for developers than ObjC when the job was primarily calling ObjC system API.
    - jottinger 2mo ago
      [dead]