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> Interestingly, he has a lot of people on what he calls the "Woke Right" (e.g Tucker Carlson) who also hate him. Is that interesting? I get accused of being a

by benj111 2mo ago

> Interestingly, he has a lot of people on what he calls the "Woke Right" (e.g Tucker Carlson) who also hate him. Is that interesting? I get accused of being a labour supporter in conservative areas and conservative in more left leaning areas. It's all part of the problem being discussed. If you don't precisely agree with someone, you must be one of 'them', and when you're in the middle, or have nuanced views, both extremes disagree with you.

Gormo 2mo ago
I have a speculative theory that core of the "woke right" did not originate from pre-existing conservative politics, but in fact emerged from segments of the political left finding themselves marginalized by the mainstream left-wing's increasing focus on identity politics over the past 10-15 years. Many people departing left-wing communities for this reason began to reframe their political identities in opposition to the mainstream left, but did so by associating themselves with the left's own caricature of the right, rather than adopting the principles that informed the baseline worldview of the poltical right. The result was an influx of people with various collectivist, economically interventionist viewpoints into right-leaning institutions and communities. Carlson, of course, isn't representative of this: I think he's just an opportunist who will play to whatever audience is in front of him, but I think the "woke right" notion of people reacting to the left while still adhering to its fundamental assumptions about the world is very evident. I think this explains why we're seeing policy positions that increasingly resemble socialist ones being advanced by "conservative" politicians.
- benj111 2mo ago
  Have you any examples? I'm kind of in the same boat as I don't agree with the identity politics, but I still count myself as left of centre.
  - Gormo 2mo ago
    > Have you any examples? Much of the "alt-right" narrative seems to revolve around embracing identity politics but siding with the outgroup in the left's version of the group-conflict story. The traditional right rejects that entire narrative. My perspective is that someone rooting for Darth Vader is still a Star Wars fan. Another example is the economic thinking that has become pervasive in MAGA circles. Zero-sum thinking, arguments that sound like the LTV in all but name, support for tariffs, and a belief in centralized state intervention to perceived economic problems: "industrial policy" is bureacratic socialism in all but name. > but I still count myself as left of centre Meanwhile, lots of people who see themselves this way are now embracing an "abundance agenda" that sounds a whole lot like a reframing of traditional conservative and libertarian economic arguments. It's as though the whole political spectrum has been tossed into a food processor, and everything's mixed and matched every which way.
    - zahlman 2mo ago
      > an "abundance agenda" that sounds a whole lot like a reframing of traditional conservative and libertarian economic arguments. I'm going to need you to be a lot more concrete about this.
      - Gormo 2mo ago
        "Abundance agenda" arguments are market-oriented and focus on reducing political obstacles to economic development, rather than seeing the political state as the driving force behind economic development.
- zahlman 2mo ago
  > segments of the political left finding themselves marginalized by the mainstream left-wing's increasing focus on identity politics over the past 10-15 years. I can confirm a group like this exists (that describes me) but I can't even remotely make sense of a "woke right" label for it. I don't even consider myself "on the right" at all; I consider that the identity of leftism has been taken from me. Which is fine insofar as I never cared much about identity in the first place; but infuriating in that all of society is seemingly buying into an entirely false narrative of leftism. > but did so by associating themselves with the left's own caricature of the right Only for satirical purposes, really. And there are more points of conflict than identity politics or collectivism and economic interventionism (I assume this can reasonably be rounded off to "support for the welfare state"). In particular, climate and energy policy. > why we're seeing policy positions that increasingly resemble socialist ones being advanced by "conservative" politicians. It's more that people insist on putting that label on anyone who doesn't play ball with leftist identity politics. Some accept it; I absolutely do not.
  - Gormo 2mo ago
    > I can confirm a group like this exists (that describes me) but I can't even remotely make sense of a "woke right" label for it. I don't even consider myself "on the right" at all; I consider that the identity of leftism has been taken from me. Then you aren't part of the phenomenon I'm describing. You seem to be rejecting the infiltration of identity politics into your political philosophy, rather than embracing it from the opposing side. The people in the latter category are the ones who often become "woke right". > Only for satirical purposes, really. It might have started out that way, but there now seems to have coalesced a genuine political faction around what originated as trolling. > And there are more points of conflict than identity politics or collectivism and economic interventionism (I assume this can reasonably be rounded off to "support for the welfare state"). In particular, climate and energy policy. No, I think support for the welfare state is tangential to the matter. There's a common thread shared between the hard left and its defectors to the "right" that regards the economy not as an emergent phenomenon driven by the purposeful choices of individuals, but as a concrete entity that is or ought to be managed in a top-down fashion by the political state (rather than merely seeing the state as a safeguard against certain failure conditions). The people currently in power at the federal level, who nominally identify themselves as "conservative", are much more economically leftist than any other administration of my lifetime. Tariffs, nationalization of industry, and regulatory expansion are about as far from conservative agenda items as you can get. And an important segment of voters that put this administration in power are people who support these policies, and have defected to the "right" for reasons related to identity politics. > It's more that people insist on putting that label on anyone who doesn't play ball with leftist identity politics. Some accept it; I absolutely do not. Neither do I, but that doesn't stop them from doing it. That's exactly the point I'm making: there's now a faction of people who call themselves "conservative" purely out of an inversion of leftist identity politics, while still adhering to ideological positions fundamentally aligned with the hard left.

by benj111 2mo ago

Gormo 2mo ago

I have a speculative theory that core of the "woke right" did not originate from pre-existing conservative politics, but in fact emerged from segments of the political left finding themselves marginalized by the mainstream left-wing's increasing focus on identity politics over the past 10-15 years. Many people departing left-wing communities for this reason began to reframe their political identities in opposition to the mainstream left, but did so by associating themselves with the left's own caricature of the right, rather than adopting the principles that informed the baseline worldview of the poltical right. The result was an influx of people with various collectivist, economically interventionist viewpoints into right-leaning institutions and communities. Carlson, of course, isn't representative of this: I think he's just an opportunist who will play to whatever audience is in front of him, but I think the "woke right" notion of people reacting to the left while still adhering to its fundamental assumptions about the world is very evident. I think this explains why we're seeing policy positions that increasingly resemble socialist ones being advanced by "conservative" politicians.

benj111 2mo ago
Have you any examples? I'm kind of in the same boat as I don't agree with the identity politics, but I still count myself as left of centre.
- Gormo 2mo ago
  > Have you any examples? Much of the "alt-right" narrative seems to revolve around embracing identity politics but siding with the outgroup in the left's version of the group-conflict story. The traditional right rejects that entire narrative. My perspective is that someone rooting for Darth Vader is still a Star Wars fan. Another example is the economic thinking that has become pervasive in MAGA circles. Zero-sum thinking, arguments that sound like the LTV in all but name, support for tariffs, and a belief in centralized state intervention to perceived economic problems: "industrial policy" is bureacratic socialism in all but name. > but I still count myself as left of centre Meanwhile, lots of people who see themselves this way are now embracing an "abundance agenda" that sounds a whole lot like a reframing of traditional conservative and libertarian economic arguments. It's as though the whole political spectrum has been tossed into a food processor, and everything's mixed and matched every which way.
  - zahlman 2mo ago
    > an "abundance agenda" that sounds a whole lot like a reframing of traditional conservative and libertarian economic arguments. I'm going to need you to be a lot more concrete about this.
    - Gormo 2mo ago
      "Abundance agenda" arguments are market-oriented and focus on reducing political obstacles to economic development, rather than seeing the political state as the driving force behind economic development.
zahlman 2mo ago
> segments of the political left finding themselves marginalized by the mainstream left-wing's increasing focus on identity politics over the past 10-15 years. I can confirm a group like this exists (that describes me) but I can't even remotely make sense of a "woke right" label for it. I don't even consider myself "on the right" at all; I consider that the identity of leftism has been taken from me. Which is fine insofar as I never cared much about identity in the first place; but infuriating in that all of society is seemingly buying into an entirely false narrative of leftism. > but did so by associating themselves with the left's own caricature of the right Only for satirical purposes, really. And there are more points of conflict than identity politics or collectivism and economic interventionism (I assume this can reasonably be rounded off to "support for the welfare state"). In particular, climate and energy policy. > why we're seeing policy positions that increasingly resemble socialist ones being advanced by "conservative" politicians. It's more that people insist on putting that label on anyone who doesn't play ball with leftist identity politics. Some accept it; I absolutely do not.
- Gormo 2mo ago
  > I can confirm a group like this exists (that describes me) but I can't even remotely make sense of a "woke right" label for it. I don't even consider myself "on the right" at all; I consider that the identity of leftism has been taken from me. Then you aren't part of the phenomenon I'm describing. You seem to be rejecting the infiltration of identity politics into your political philosophy, rather than embracing it from the opposing side. The people in the latter category are the ones who often become "woke right". > Only for satirical purposes, really. It might have started out that way, but there now seems to have coalesced a genuine political faction around what originated as trolling. > And there are more points of conflict than identity politics or collectivism and economic interventionism (I assume this can reasonably be rounded off to "support for the welfare state"). In particular, climate and energy policy. No, I think support for the welfare state is tangential to the matter. There's a common thread shared between the hard left and its defectors to the "right" that regards the economy not as an emergent phenomenon driven by the purposeful choices of individuals, but as a concrete entity that is or ought to be managed in a top-down fashion by the political state (rather than merely seeing the state as a safeguard against certain failure conditions). The people currently in power at the federal level, who nominally identify themselves as "conservative", are much more economically leftist than any other administration of my lifetime. Tariffs, nationalization of industry, and regulatory expansion are about as far from conservative agenda items as you can get. And an important segment of voters that put this administration in power are people who support these policies, and have defected to the "right" for reasons related to identity politics. > It's more that people insist on putting that label on anyone who doesn't play ball with leftist identity politics. Some accept it; I absolutely do not. Neither do I, but that doesn't stop them from doing it. That's exactly the point I'm making: there's now a faction of people who call themselves "conservative" purely out of an inversion of leftist identity politics, while still adhering to ideological positions fundamentally aligned with the hard left.