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I spent some time in Poland three years ago and have not stopped talking about it ever since. It stood out from the other Eastern European countries that I vis

by rmason 2mo ago

I spent some time in Poland three years ago and have not stopped talking about it ever since. It stood out from the other Eastern European countries that I visited on that trip. Had a lunch in Warsaw with a German friend who had relocated there. He said it was more Conservative than Germany and there was more freedom of expression. Over forty years of Communist rule and they were never able to pull them away from their commitment to the Catholic church. Also lots of excellent museums and large parks.

simmerup 2mo ago
There’s a reason the solidarity movement arose in Poland Remarkable culture
pjc50 2mo ago
It would be good to have real insights into how Poland is doing well just now, but (gestures at thread) it seems to be a lot of people bringing out their pet solutions. Is the boom related to the removal of PiS in 2023? Is it linked to Ukraine (businesses and people relocating across the border? Arms sales?)
- nxm 2mo ago
  No it’s not related to removal of PiS at all. Poland’s economy was booming under PiS
  - ManuelKiessling 2mo ago
    Did it stop booming afterwards?
ManuelKiessling 2mo ago
Wouldn’t „more freedom of expression“ imply less conservative? Or what aspects of conservatism, and what aspects of freedom of expression, are you referring to here?
- imdsm 2mo ago
  Not if your tradition is to have freedom. Then to be a conservative means to conserve freedom. Think about the UK & US. The conservatives don't want to change what it means to be American/British, but the far left want to change it all. They want to change: ownership, innovation, free market, property, freedom of speech/expression, freedom of thought/opinion, employment, government, you name it. Conservatives = resist change Progressive = encourage change and change goes both ways -/+ right? We know this. In Poland, they want to have a place to call home that feels European, feels Western. In the UK if you say that, straight-to-jail.gif or less flippantly, threatened and shunned by either people who don't want you to have an opinion or people afraid of them. It's a sorry state of affairs.
  - ManuelKiessling 2mo ago
    But why the did Poland introduce a de-facto abortion ban in early 2021, with terminations only permitted in cases of rape, incest or if there is a threat to the mother's health or life? And abortions due to fetal abnormalities are no longer permitted in Poland. Isn’t that at odds with „conserve freedom“?
    - ImJamal 2mo ago
      If you believe a fetus is a human then banning abortion is conserving freedom of the fetus. This is no different than saying banning murder of a person who is born is a way of conserving freedom. Obviously you disagree that a fetus is human or has human rights, but for somebody who does it makes perfect sense.
      - hdgvhicv 2mo ago
        So they’re happy to remove the rights of the woman carrying the fetus I assume that continues when the baby is born and people have to sacrifice their rights to feed the baby. Not in as extreme a way as bodily servitude, perhaps just taxation of the work they do to provide food, shelter, healthcare.
pndy 2mo ago
That commitment probably won't change anytime soon but more and more people are dissatisfied of the church here - how it interferes with politics, tries to dictate what is morally right and of course covers up pedophilia cases. During pandemic (which also happen during the right-wing coalition govt) public TVP2 channel ran breakfast TV segment where one of questions was if audience should kneel at homes during the broadcast of the Mass if they decided to "participate". https://natemat.pl/303229,czy-klekac-przed-telewizorem-w-czasie-mszy-kuriozalne-pytanie-w-tvp-2 https://natemat.pl/303229,czy-klekac-przed-telewizorem-w-cza... (in Polish obv) Still, this isn't as easy to digest as it may seem - you'd of course have to study our history to understand that connection to faith.
snowpid 2mo ago
I am really happy for Poland getting rich (they deserved it!), but with little knowledge about Polish politics you just have to shack your head. " Warsaw with a German friend who had relocated there. He said it was more Conservative than Germany and there was more freedom of expression." In Poland the constitutional court isnt working very good because of the former authoritarian Orban like PiS government. In case of a next Pis government only the European courts might help in case of a freedom of speech matter. In Germany the constitutional court does work. "they were never able to pull them away from their commitment to the Catholic church. " They do. Poland and especially the younger generation is securalising and also becomes more open to queer people. Also you can ask catholic officials how much they are willing to do for freedom of expression of atheism ("crazy") and gay men ("perverts").
gfrecvh 2mo ago
While you were in Poland, did you call it "Eastern Europe" to people's faces? How did they react?
ManuelKiessling 2mo ago
Did you also talk about this: > “Throughout OECD countries, men are much more likely to die from suicide, acute alcohol abuse or a drug overdose – on average, almost 4 men for every woman. This gender gap is largest in Poland, at 8.2.” See figure 5.8 at https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/2020/03/how-s-life-2020_b547d82c/full-report/component-8.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/2020/03/how-s-life-2020... What do you think might be the reason behind this?
Markoff 2mo ago
> It stood out from the other Eastern European countries that I visited on that trip. Just note for the other readers, don't call people in Poland, Czechia, Slovakia or Hungary Eastern Europeans unless you want to irritate them and look like pretentious tourist.

by rmason 2mo ago

simmerup 2mo ago

There’s a reason the solidarity movement arose in Poland Remarkable culture

pjc50 2mo ago

It would be good to have real insights into how Poland is doing well just now, but (gestures at thread) it seems to be a lot of people bringing out their pet solutions. Is the boom related to the removal of PiS in 2023? Is it linked to Ukraine (businesses and people relocating across the border? Arms sales?)

nxm 2mo ago
No it’s not related to removal of PiS at all. Poland’s economy was booming under PiS
- ManuelKiessling 2mo ago
  Did it stop booming afterwards?

ManuelKiessling 2mo ago

Wouldn’t „more freedom of expression“ imply less conservative? Or what aspects of conservatism, and what aspects of freedom of expression, are you referring to here?

imdsm 2mo ago
Not if your tradition is to have freedom. Then to be a conservative means to conserve freedom. Think about the UK & US. The conservatives don't want to change what it means to be American/British, but the far left want to change it all. They want to change: ownership, innovation, free market, property, freedom of speech/expression, freedom of thought/opinion, employment, government, you name it. Conservatives = resist change Progressive = encourage change and change goes both ways -/+ right? We know this. In Poland, they want to have a place to call home that feels European, feels Western. In the UK if you say that, straight-to-jail.gif or less flippantly, threatened and shunned by either people who don't want you to have an opinion or people afraid of them. It's a sorry state of affairs.
- ManuelKiessling 2mo ago
  But why the did Poland introduce a de-facto abortion ban in early 2021, with terminations only permitted in cases of rape, incest or if there is a threat to the mother's health or life? And abortions due to fetal abnormalities are no longer permitted in Poland. Isn’t that at odds with „conserve freedom“?
  - ImJamal 2mo ago
    If you believe a fetus is a human then banning abortion is conserving freedom of the fetus. This is no different than saying banning murder of a person who is born is a way of conserving freedom. Obviously you disagree that a fetus is human or has human rights, but for somebody who does it makes perfect sense.
    - hdgvhicv 2mo ago
      So they’re happy to remove the rights of the woman carrying the fetus I assume that continues when the baby is born and people have to sacrifice their rights to feed the baby. Not in as extreme a way as bodily servitude, perhaps just taxation of the work they do to provide food, shelter, healthcare.

pndy 2mo ago

That commitment probably won't change anytime soon but more and more people are dissatisfied of the church here - how it interferes with politics, tries to dictate what is morally right and of course covers up pedophilia cases. During pandemic (which also happen during the right-wing coalition govt) public TVP2 channel ran breakfast TV segment where one of questions was if audience should kneel at homes during the broadcast of the Mass if they decided to "participate". https://natemat.pl/303229,czy-klekac-przed-telewizorem-w-czasie-mszy-kuriozalne-pytanie-w-tvp-2 https://natemat.pl/303229,czy-klekac-przed-telewizorem-w-cza... (in Polish obv) Still, this isn't as easy to digest as it may seem - you'd of course have to study our history to understand that connection to faith.

snowpid 2mo ago

I am really happy for Poland getting rich (they deserved it!), but with little knowledge about Polish politics you just have to shack your head. " Warsaw with a German friend who had relocated there. He said it was more Conservative than Germany and there was more freedom of expression." In Poland the constitutional court isnt working very good because of the former authoritarian Orban like PiS government. In case of a next Pis government only the European courts might help in case of a freedom of speech matter. In Germany the constitutional court does work. "they were never able to pull them away from their commitment to the Catholic church. " They do. Poland and especially the younger generation is securalising and also becomes more open to queer people. Also you can ask catholic officials how much they are willing to do for freedom of expression of atheism ("crazy") and gay men ("perverts").

gfrecvh 2mo ago

While you were in Poland, did you call it "Eastern Europe" to people's faces? How did they react?

ManuelKiessling 2mo ago

Did you also talk about this: > “Throughout OECD countries, men are much more likely to die from suicide, acute alcohol abuse or a drug overdose – on average, almost 4 men for every woman. This gender gap is largest in Poland, at 8.2.” See figure 5.8 at https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/2020/03/how-s-life-2020_b547d82c/full-report/component-8.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/2020/03/how-s-life-2020... What do you think might be the reason behind this?

Markoff 2mo ago

> It stood out from the other Eastern European countries that I visited on that trip. Just note for the other readers, don't call people in Poland, Czechia, Slovakia or Hungary Eastern Europeans unless you want to irritate them and look like pretentious tourist.