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Jokes on you. When there isn't a functional system of government there is nothing to stop rich psychopaths from paying poor psychopaths killing those who get i

by ygjb 2mo ago

Jokes on you. When there isn't a functional system of government there is nothing to stop rich psychopaths from paying poor psychopaths killing those who get in there way and declaring themselves dictators. In the absence of effective laws to align people in the direction of the society they want, and constant effort to realign in response to pressure, we will fall back to tribalism and all of the attendant forms of feudalism and government that came before it. Ownership then reverts to might (or those with the resources to buy might) makes right.

yks 2mo ago
In societies like that, Silicon Valley’s rich nerds might discover that they’re not the ones with the real might, see Putin’s Russia, which many of them adore. Money is but one of the facets of power.
- jltsiren 2mo ago
  Russia is a country with a strong centralized government capable of enforcing laws whenever it wants. In the absence of effective laws, one of the biggest threats to rich people would be their own hired thugs. If the thugs decide that they don't respect you and they would make better rich assholes, they will kill you and take your property. Historically, societies like that were often ruled by the biggest and the most charismatic thugs, who could command the respect of lesser thugs. Or warrior nobility, if you want a fancier term. Today's billionaire nerds would not be among those.
  - TheOtherHobbes 2mo ago
    If I was a semi-rich thug boss I'd hire out my thugs as security to all the nervous billionaire nerds. Including cybersecurity. Then I could make a move whenever.
  - steveBK123 2mo ago
    It’s no accident that the schmoozer media/real estate/car dealer/mining/energy guys in US wield more power than their wealth relative to SV VC bros would seem to merit.
  - yks 2mo ago
    Russian state is a final form of the thug-centric governance. The economic oligarchs maintain their riches at the behest of thugs, but they don’t have the power nor freedom.
    - red-iron-pine 2mo ago
      that is the lesson of Khodorkovsky you can be the boyar and punch down, but you get uppity and challenge the Tsar you end up in a cage
  - AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
    > Russia is a country with a strong centralized government capable of enforcing laws whenever it wants. Russia is 15 slots lower than Nigeria on government corruption. Putin can easily have someone killed but the idea that if he needed money for the war he could get it by e.g. enforcing the law against taking kickbacks for misallocating public funds is so ridiculous that even attempting to do it might be one of the few things that could cause him to be removed from power. And for a similar reason he can't enforce laws that require any form of localized information, because everybody is just fabricating the numbers. The trouble with running a kleptocracy is that there's no honor among thieves.
  - selimthegrim 2mo ago
    laughs in Chechen
swiftcoder 2mo ago
> or those with the resources to buy might This feels a bit like those rich survivalists who think they are going to fix bomb-collars to their bodyguards to ensure loyalty in the apocalypse... stock certificates aren't worth a whole lot in a world where the rule of law has broken down
- ygjb 2mo ago
  I said resources not money. Charisma, religion and promoting hate have empowered just as many psychopaths in history as wealth.
  - swiftcoder 2mo ago
    Well, right, but I'm not sure the tech elites actually own much in the way of resources in that sense. Is the Apple fandom strong enough to get Tim Cook his own private army of zealots when society breaks down?
    - danans 2mo ago
      > Is the Apple fandom strong enough to get Tim Cook his own private army of zealots when society breaks down? Society won't break down (in the chaos sense) and resources will still be allocated. Power abhors a vacuum as they say. It's just that resources and power will controlled and distributed in an openly feudal way. Technology's egalitarian objectives will be replaced by overtly oligarchic ones. Tech fandom will be replaced with other identities constructed to gain access to real resources owned and controlled by the few.
      - andsoitis 2mo ago
        > access to real resources owned and controlled by the few. What’s an example of such a real resource?
        danans 2mo ago
        Land, housing, water, energy, food, medicines, healthcare, security, and proximity to influence. I'm sure I forgot a few.
SoftTalker 2mo ago
The problem for them is that in the US, "those who get in the way" are armed.
- ygjb 2mo ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSqCjMRXWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSqCjMRXWA Granted, the wealthy may not have the resources of the US military, but I am willing to bet that push comes to shove, the corporate security forces of companies like palantir and anduril, let alone actual mainstream military hardware providers would be a far greater threat than armed civilians in a fully deregulated or collapsed American state. I don't care much about the 2nd amendment absolutists, and the myth of the American heroes who will stand up to tyranny, because so far the only thing they appear to have stood up for in the last hundred years are gun rights, religious fundamentalism, and in 2020, a demagogue. American exceptionalism and gun culture are important to Americans, but are pretty much viewed as narcissism and with skepticism outside of the US. YMMV, but like another comment I made recently, this isn't an anti-American sentiment, it's just a perspective from one of your neighbours to the north who has lots of Canadian and American friends and family living in the US.
hibikir 2mo ago
At which point, GDP growth sinks like a rock, and those rich people become poorer in absolute terms. It's the typical outcome in the vast majority of autocracies. It's all over development economics literature, based on purely empirical studies. There's little reason to believe that the US is somehow an outlier. Weaken trust in the system, go from a system of laws to a system of deals, and watch growth go away, with all the unrest that brings. A pity that so many people in SV only read what flatters them.
- lovich 2mo ago
  > At which point, GDP growth sinks like a rock, and those rich people become poorer in absolute terms. While I think these guys have an addiction to wealth, I also think they are even more addicted to having more than anyone else. I’m like 80/20 on if these guys would take living in the medieval era but we’re the king or emperor vs being a regular citizen in a Star Trek level of technology and post scarcity society. Rather rules over ashes and all that.
  - Gud 2mo ago
    There is no way these individuals would want to be demoted to "regular citizen" in Star Trek compared to being a medieval feudal lord. You don't even have to make them emperors.

by ygjb 2mo ago

yks 2mo ago

In societies like that, Silicon Valley’s rich nerds might discover that they’re not the ones with the real might, see Putin’s Russia, which many of them adore. Money is but one of the facets of power.

jltsiren 2mo ago
Russia is a country with a strong centralized government capable of enforcing laws whenever it wants. In the absence of effective laws, one of the biggest threats to rich people would be their own hired thugs. If the thugs decide that they don't respect you and they would make better rich assholes, they will kill you and take your property. Historically, societies like that were often ruled by the biggest and the most charismatic thugs, who could command the respect of lesser thugs. Or warrior nobility, if you want a fancier term. Today's billionaire nerds would not be among those.
- TheOtherHobbes 2mo ago
  If I was a semi-rich thug boss I'd hire out my thugs as security to all the nervous billionaire nerds. Including cybersecurity. Then I could make a move whenever.
- steveBK123 2mo ago
  It’s no accident that the schmoozer media/real estate/car dealer/mining/energy guys in US wield more power than their wealth relative to SV VC bros would seem to merit.
- yks 2mo ago
  Russian state is a final form of the thug-centric governance. The economic oligarchs maintain their riches at the behest of thugs, but they don’t have the power nor freedom.
  - red-iron-pine 2mo ago
    that is the lesson of Khodorkovsky you can be the boyar and punch down, but you get uppity and challenge the Tsar you end up in a cage
- AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
  > Russia is a country with a strong centralized government capable of enforcing laws whenever it wants. Russia is 15 slots lower than Nigeria on government corruption. Putin can easily have someone killed but the idea that if he needed money for the war he could get it by e.g. enforcing the law against taking kickbacks for misallocating public funds is so ridiculous that even attempting to do it might be one of the few things that could cause him to be removed from power. And for a similar reason he can't enforce laws that require any form of localized information, because everybody is just fabricating the numbers. The trouble with running a kleptocracy is that there's no honor among thieves.
- selimthegrim 2mo ago
  laughs in Chechen

swiftcoder 2mo ago

> or those with the resources to buy might This feels a bit like those rich survivalists who think they are going to fix bomb-collars to their bodyguards to ensure loyalty in the apocalypse... stock certificates aren't worth a whole lot in a world where the rule of law has broken down

ygjb 2mo ago
I said resources not money. Charisma, religion and promoting hate have empowered just as many psychopaths in history as wealth.
- swiftcoder 2mo ago
  Well, right, but I'm not sure the tech elites actually own much in the way of resources in that sense. Is the Apple fandom strong enough to get Tim Cook his own private army of zealots when society breaks down?
  - danans 2mo ago
    > Is the Apple fandom strong enough to get Tim Cook his own private army of zealots when society breaks down? Society won't break down (in the chaos sense) and resources will still be allocated. Power abhors a vacuum as they say. It's just that resources and power will controlled and distributed in an openly feudal way. Technology's egalitarian objectives will be replaced by overtly oligarchic ones. Tech fandom will be replaced with other identities constructed to gain access to real resources owned and controlled by the few.
    - andsoitis 2mo ago
      > access to real resources owned and controlled by the few. What’s an example of such a real resource?
      - danans 2mo ago
        Land, housing, water, energy, food, medicines, healthcare, security, and proximity to influence. I'm sure I forgot a few.

SoftTalker 2mo ago

The problem for them is that in the US, "those who get in the way" are armed.

ygjb 2mo ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSqCjMRXWA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSqCjMRXWA Granted, the wealthy may not have the resources of the US military, but I am willing to bet that push comes to shove, the corporate security forces of companies like palantir and anduril, let alone actual mainstream military hardware providers would be a far greater threat than armed civilians in a fully deregulated or collapsed American state. I don't care much about the 2nd amendment absolutists, and the myth of the American heroes who will stand up to tyranny, because so far the only thing they appear to have stood up for in the last hundred years are gun rights, religious fundamentalism, and in 2020, a demagogue. American exceptionalism and gun culture are important to Americans, but are pretty much viewed as narcissism and with skepticism outside of the US. YMMV, but like another comment I made recently, this isn't an anti-American sentiment, it's just a perspective from one of your neighbours to the north who has lots of Canadian and American friends and family living in the US.

hibikir 2mo ago

At which point, GDP growth sinks like a rock, and those rich people become poorer in absolute terms. It's the typical outcome in the vast majority of autocracies. It's all over development economics literature, based on purely empirical studies. There's little reason to believe that the US is somehow an outlier. Weaken trust in the system, go from a system of laws to a system of deals, and watch growth go away, with all the unrest that brings. A pity that so many people in SV only read what flatters them.

lovich 2mo ago
> At which point, GDP growth sinks like a rock, and those rich people become poorer in absolute terms. While I think these guys have an addiction to wealth, I also think they are even more addicted to having more than anyone else. I’m like 80/20 on if these guys would take living in the medieval era but we’re the king or emperor vs being a regular citizen in a Star Trek level of technology and post scarcity society. Rather rules over ashes and all that.
- Gud 2mo ago
  There is no way these individuals would want to be demoted to "regular citizen" in Star Trek compared to being a medieval feudal lord. You don't even have to make them emperors.