6 ms·
Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)
- janinarodriguez 2mo ago[dead]
- gwern 2mo agoHard to discuss this with only a short abstract. They don't even give a dose or formulation of the melatonin, and details like "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures." raise more questions than they answer.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- colordrops 2mo agoAnecdote - I've used it dozens of times and I'm always foggy in the AM, so I avoid it if I have to be sharp the next morning. Perhaps it's a coincidence and this study is flawed, but I can believe it pretty easily.
- dripdry45 2mo agosame here. I use 5HTP instead, apparently the same chemical pathway just goes in at a different point. no fog in the morning at all. Nice and sharp, feel good.
- flexagoon 2mo agoWhat dose are you using? Most OTC melatonin supplements are sold in a 3 or 5mg dose, while the correct one is ~0.3mg or even lower for some people. High dose may be related to the fogginess.
- colordrops 2mo agoYeah, I'm familiar with that, and I try to break them into small pieces, but sometimes I just pop one. I always get the smallest dose I can find. I don't really use it except for jetlag anyway.
- stephen_g 2mo agoMake sure to never use a slow release formulation, those are terrible and basically a guarantee of morning grogginess. I use liquid to get it absorbed as fast as possible, a low dose (1mg) and my sleep doctor also recommended to take it as early as will work for me (even up to 4 hours before sleep he said, but I usually take it about 1.5-2h before which works for me). His theory is that you need it all to be metabolised before the midpoint of sleep, whereas slow release keeps going past that so you’ll always feel groggy. Also potentially just a larger dose will do that.
- ororroro 2mo agoThe study is on "healthy young adults". How much improvement would you expect on someone who is already "healthy"? It's not like they are going to ascend and become superhuman.
- cmdoptesc 2mo agoHi Gwern, just wanted to say your post on melatonin helped me sort out my sleep in my twenties. I had hangups using it on a regular basis and your arguments helped me get over that taboo. Thank you. For anyone interested: https://gwern.net/melatonin https://gwern.net/melatonin
- mutagen 2mo agoThis thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against morning cognition.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- DANmode 2mo ago5 is almost universally too much. 4 is almost universally too much.. 3 is the most I’ve ever recommended. More than enough.
- pazimzadeh 2mo agoless than 1 is plenty
- alfiedotwtf 2mo ago5 as in milligrams?! I’ve found 10mg is sometimes just enough, but 20-30mg is where I actually feel a noticeable difference
- bardsore 2mo agoThat is an extreme amount
- DANmode 2mo agoI’d be looking at other problems. That’s…an extreme amount, as the other commenter said.
- stephen_g 2mo agoI assume this is with tablets? In which case I think maybe try liquid solution instead? Sounds like either the tablets aren’t being absorbed at all or they are wildly off in the concentration (which is common because it’s so unregulated) Just 1mg in liquid form is plenty for me, and that’s as someone who has had severe sleep onset difficulty for as long as I remember before I started using melatonin. I was told to hold the liquid under my tongue to absorb for a while before swallowing. I get it in 10mg/mL and it comes with a little oral syringe that you draw up 0.1mL with.
- redrove 2mo agoCould it just be dosage? Commonly found dosage is 10-20x what you'd actually secrete and IIRC absorption is actually quite good.
- dripdry45 2mo agoMy understanding is that melatonin can overload certain receptors and cause an issue with fogginess since it works directly on the brain. 5HTP is more broad and is “gated“ on the same metabolic pathway, so cannot overload the system the way melatonin does.
- WarOnPrivacy 2mo agoNot sleeping impairs my morning cognition - a lot. Melatonin is part of the rotating stacks I use to mitigate insomnia. My mornings have always been impaired, going back to pre-school. Meds don't make my mornings any worse than my baseline.
- johntash 2mo agoWhat else is part of your rotating stacks? Asking as someone who melatonin doesn't seem to help much
- mutagen 2mo agoNot OP but I seem to get a benefit from GABA. Valerian root is effective at inducing sleep but leaves me groggy and I've had paradoxical anxiety reactions to it and there's some question around its longer term use. L-theanine is often mentioned but I'm not sure I benefit. Magnesium glycinate is another that comes up often.
- rapsey 2mo agoInsomniac for 20 years. What was a complete solution for me was: magnesium, b6 p5p (p5p form very important) and the ultimate punch glycine. Glycine takes some getting used to, as you will have crazy intense dreams at first. But it is a very safe supplement to take even in large doses. I always had huge insomnia issues after a physically intensive days after workouts. The stack I settled on solved it. A heavy day just needs a bit more magnesium and quite a bit more glycine.
- ajkjk 2mo agoMy understanding is that you ought to take melatonin in small doses (0.3 or so) an hour or two before sleep in order to get tired, whereupon you sleep (normally, ish, unless you take too much and then you get crazy dreams or sleep paralysis). If I take it and go right to bed I always wake up still in the 'window' of its effect.
- Zardoz84 2mo agoI was taking small doses of melatonin before go to sleep for a year or two. To help me begin to sleep. I have a tinnitus. Usually I have a deep sleep. I can get sleep, I can sleep all night without problems. it's only the first hour that can be problematic for me. I stoped like half year, and I don't having problems to sleep.
- senderista 2mo agoEven 200 mcg is enough to give me brain fog. I stick with 100 mcg unless I'm really having a hard time falling asleep.
- Uptrenda 2mo agoAs a long term insomniac the head line result is not surprising. My overall experience with "sleep aides" is they all lead to impairments in morning cognition. The worst of which don't last just the morning... (seroquel, I'm pointing at you...) Melatonin is surprisingly powerful for a hormone / supplement. For me, it hits like a truck, and I find it strong enough that I had to stop taking it. I'd be careful with the methodology here. There's been research that shows that most melatonin supplements are megadosed, with something like the "physiological dosage range" being 1 - 2 micrograms (ug.) So I'd hope the researchers got a trustworthy source for their tablets. It seems to me that with such a low dosage range you don't have much margin to avoid errors. I think when it comes to sleep problems the worst possible place to start is with pills. Pills quickly lead to dependence and a lot of them either stop working or introduce so many side effects that there's little "therapeutic benefit." I think the right approach for insomnia is to focus on improving overall health. A lot of symptoms people go to the doctor for in that category are due to life-style factors. So if you maintain healthy habits you don't have to end up on 10 different pills just to function... It's a slippery slope, trust me on that.
- margor 2mo agoYeah, sure. I would love to find a natural or lifestyle remedy to common RLS or PLMD symptoms that I get from time to time. The problem is that for some people it's impossible to identify what are the triggers and sometimes it's just genetics you have no control over. But sure, do tell people to avoid doctors and make them suffer even though there are drug remedies that don't cause dependence and augumentation.
- maccard 2mo agoBeing charitable to OP, I think their advice is to look after your health before hyper focusing on your sleep. I’ve had a similar experience - the better I care for my body the better my sleep is (and the opposite is a self reinforcing cycle). For me, personally, CBT and therapy helped hugely with the feelings of overwhelm I got from feeling like I wasn’t getting enough sleep and gave me the tools to deal with the fact that I’m not going to fall asleep at 11:30 and wake up at 7:30 like I would like to. It’s not perfect, but what is?
- s-ww 2mo agoNext, the same experiment could be done with individuals who would be more likely to use melatonin supplements, or even just a broader group than "healthy young adults". I feel that the starting point of the experiment is a bit flawed since there's a high chance these healthy young adults don't have the problem the supplements are designed for. I'm not surprised about "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures" for these people. Personal experience: I have mild insomnia* and I sometimes take melatonin. It generally does help, but I can be groggy in the morning, if I took it too late in the evening. Happens sometimes. But for me, it's so much better to be sometimes a bit groggy for a short while, compared to being completely exhausted from sleep deprivation all day. *I was a startup founder for 10 years and practically did not sleep during that time. Even years after that life, it feels like my body is not responding to melatonin that much. Or my body is not secreting enough itself. Who knows.
- ttoinou 2mo agoWouldnt you be less efficient with less sleep ? For a startup you should improve sleep quality
- olivermuty 2mo agoYes, but this is sadly a lesson most founders (especially american ones) need to self teach. I certainly did and struggle with both sleep and stress induced anxiety, 9 years after my founder burnout.
- doctorwho42 2mo agoWell there are a lot of social pressures in the startup/tech world to be go-go-go. It's the pure form of grind culture, coming out of silicon valley over the last few decades.
- s-ww 2mo agoGenerally yes, and I definitely am an advocate of getting enough sleep and good quality sleep. Regarding "sleep more to be more efficient"; Hard to say without visiting a parallel universe. But in this specific case it was really about having enough hours in a day. Most of the work did not require me at my sharpest. If I was in the same situation today, Claude would be doing these menial things for me and I'd sleep more. But we didn't have Claude then. It was a tech startup that I wanted to build without any outside money. With investments of course I'd just hire more people. I had luck and perseverance, and everything turned out great. I had 100% ownership and sold it for private equity. Now I only work because I like solving tricky problems, and not working gets incredibly boring after a while.
- thin_carapace 2mo agomelatonin should be consumed in doses an order of magnitude smaller than the smallest available dosage. melatonin should also be consumed in a particular time period to correctly trigger the circadian rhythm. long term consistent melatonin use is not advised outside of special cases (eg elderly where morning cognition is unimpactful). irregardless I don't believe that consuming modified release melatonin is healthy long term, because it breaks the circadian rhythm ... but if it works it works. if you can afford expensive supplements, perhaps consider trying magnesium threonate for sleep. anecdotally this caused intense dreaming, leading to 1 less sleep cycle being required for restfulness. you could also try eating tons of tabouli and see if a massive apigenin hit calms the body for sleep. skullcap as a tea has some interesting properties regarding GABA modulation. on tea, passionflower is a decent MAO inhibitor and knocks some people out, but that's way less sustainable than melatonin. lastly dont lie down on your right side after eating!!!
- eurleif 2mo ago>melatonin should be consumed in doses an order of magnitude smaller than the smallest available dosage. It's available on Amazon in doses as low as 100mcg: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MJL2GTC https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MJL2GTC Are you saying this because you believe the correct dose is on the order of double-digit mcg, or because you're under the impression that the lowest available dose is single-digit mg?
- thin_carapace 2mo agothe lowest otc dose I previously witnessed was 1mg, perhaps my phrasing should have been "smallest commonly available dosage", because the correct dose is indeed in the vicinity of 100mcg
- JSR_FDED 2mo agoMy experience with Melatonin was very hit-or-miss. Sometimes it landed like a hammer and I was very groggy the next day. Sometimes it seemed not to work at all. This was with all sorts of doses. I've found Tart Cherry - as an OTC supplement to work much better. More pleasant drift off to sleep, less waking up at night, and no morning grogginess.
- rapsey 2mo agoThe body gets used to melatonin. It is actually a crap sleep supplement. It works worse every time you take it. What you should be doing is give the body the ingredients it needs to make its own melatonin like it is suppose to work.
- Torn 2mo agoHmm no there's no little evidence to support the body getting used to external melatonin and not making its own in response
- RinatNabiev 2mo ago[dead]
- HexPhantom 2mo ago[flagged]
- PeterStuer 2mo agoTangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.
- bodash 2mo agoInteresting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock
- PeterStuer 2mo agoIt was not an option. Kids need a regular schedule with school and things. It was rough though. I did not ever drink coffee before that time, but starting then I needed several cups just to avoid accidents in the morning.
- siren2026 2mo agoSchool starts way too early. That's something we need to change. I grew up in Europe and school started at 9AM. Which allowed for an 8AM wake up. Unlike here where my kids need to wake up at 6AM. Absolutely ridiculous
- remuskaos 2mo ago"I grew up in Europe" can literally be any one of over 40 different countries, and even more education systems. I am in Germany, and school starts at 8 in Berlin, 8:05 in Wiesbaden, 7:45 in some small cities in Baden-Württemberg... And those are only the ones that I, personally, experienced. I'm sure Poland and Spain have different times, not lastly owing to timezones etc. Please don't treat all of Europe as one single country with one set of customs.
- msuniverse2026 2mo agoI've noticed if I use the f.lux feature for just 15 minutes I begin to get tired at night. Blue light is a hell of a drug.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- sublinear 2mo ago> The results suggest that negative performance effects of exogenous melatonin may outweigh any benefits for healthy young adults Not surprising at all. The vast majority of people taking supplements are avoiding either the doctor, eating a better diet, or regular exercise. What are the odds that someone comfortable taking overpriced sketchy pills is also probably comfortable taking other substances? I only have to look at any random suburban strip mall in the USA to get my answer. I always chuckle at the IV drip place next door to the bar.
- karol 2mo agoIt just says that when you slept well you can be a bit drowsy.
- zdc1 2mo agoAnecdotally, I've taken 3mg a couple of times to adjust my sleep schedule and have found that I do feel a bit drowsy/slow the next morning. Fine for me since it's just ad hoc usage, but I wouldn't take it nightly.
- vient 2mo agoThis may just be too much. I settled up on 0.2mg dosage - you can find 0.1mg tablets, easy to try different dosages with them. Also seems to work better if you take it 2-3 hours before sleep.
- esperent 2mo agoAs with so many experiments, the study itself is clear and testing something valid, but when it gets shared somewhere like reddit/HN/Facebook etc. everyone takes the broadest possible, unintended reading. - study: we tested specifically healthy young adults and found melatonin may have a negative effect on this cohort. We make zero claims about any other cohort. - every lay person reading the study, of any age: scientists just proved melatonin makes me dumb in the morning! Oh no!
- BiteCode_dev 2mo agoSurprisingly, one thing that tremendously helped my sleep quality, and several persons around is wim hof breathing. I used to do it in the morning, and my brother recommanded I'd switch to just before sleep. The difference is stark in effects, and you fall asleep like a baby even when stressed, using red light, with heat waves, etc... Given it's free and don't have the side effects of regular melatonin supplement, I would encourage every one to give it at least a one week trial.
- ucsandman 2mo agoyup I can attest to that but it's better than getting no sleep
- alkyon 2mo agoI stopped taking melatonin because I had problems waking up in the morning and was getting nasty headaches even with half a dose (1 mg). Edit: Maybe I should try reducing the dose even further (to 200 μg) as mentioned in other posts here
- Snoozus 2mo agoThere is a world where melatonin is not worth it in the short run, but the result flips after a few days of sleep deprivation in the control group.
- taurusnoises 2mo agoRecently, I started taking a 3mg dose of melatonin for 1-3 days after flying to a timezone requiring a fair amount of effort to get a full night's sleep (3-6+ hours time difference), and find it helps to quickly get me on the new schedule. I maybe feel a little groggy, but nothing unsettling. Note: I take a trip like this maybe once or twice a year (no more), and typically wake up with zero grogginess otherwise.
- cindyllm 2mo ago[dead]
- kolli_kumar 2mo agoI live in the US and I take 300mcg - Extended Release - once in a while mainly after/before long flight - (depending on the time). And it works fine. It doesn’t work well for me after a good meal. So pop two or take it before the meal.
- avesi 2mo agoIn holistic circles, people swear by magnesium. Magnesium glycinate in particular has worked really well for me. It makes sense, because magnesium is a co-factor for converting tryptophan into serotonin, which is turned into the hormone melatonin. So, you could try supporting your body's natural production of sleep hormones by ensuring you have enough available tryptophan and magnesium in your diet.
- iluvcommunism 2mo ago[dead]
- xtracto 2mo agoA couple of years ago, my wife (around 40 at the time) was struggling to sleep (she had very light sleep and woke up in the middle of the night for no reason). She tried most of the things everybody recommends, melatonin, slow release, Gaba, magnesium, etc. The only thing that helped was ZMA (a compound body builders use with Magnesium and Zinc). No idea why, but while the Magnesium alone didn't do anything, the ZMA helped her. Nowadays we always have a bottle by the bedside. I use it sparingly whenever I want to get deep sleep. What I like vs Melatonin is that when I take Melatonin I dream a lot and I dont feel that "rested" next morning. I even wake up groggy. With ZMA, I sleep very deep, like shut my eyes and suddenly I am wake next day. I feel way more rested.
- cloudengineer94 2mo agoYeah I noticed it didn't make much to me besides make me have weird dreams. I do recommend people to have a healthy lifestyle and avoid screens 45 mins before bed.
- cjbgkagh 2mo agoLike almost every psychoactive drug it really depends on the individual. I have ME/CFS from a strong genetic propensity to dysautonomia. I think that my ME/CFS is an autoimmune reaction to the dysautonomia where, counter intuitively, medications like melatonin and amitriptyline, by helping with dysautonomia, actually substantially increase energy levels and mental cognition during the day. My case is a bit extreme at ~1/20K but I think ~1/50 of the general population have a similar but much milder reaction. At N=120 a study like this would not be able to detect that. These ~1/50 people are more likely to have the sort of sleep issues / burnout that makes them more likely to reach for melatonin in the first place. So the more interesting study would be conditioned by the subset of the general population that have already decided they need melatonin.
- tancop 2mo ago[dead]