4 ms·

I think most people who write code are the latter and not the former. The industry has diluted the term "engineer" so much that they maybe don't even realise th

by kcexn 2mo ago

I think most people who write code are the latter and not the former. The industry has diluted the term "engineer" so much that they maybe don't even realise that traditional engineering projects are about more than just implementation work.

pjmlp 2mo ago
In the countries where Engineering is a professional title and not something people decide to call themselves, we still know the difference.
- kcexn 2mo ago
  In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers?
  - pjmlp 2mo ago
    In many, I am at least aware of Portugal, Germany and Canada. https://www.lexpoint.pt/Default.aspx?PageId=128&ContentId=60650 https://www.lexpoint.pt/Default.aspx?PageId=128&ContentId=60... https://www.vdi.de/news/detail/wer-darf-sich-ingenieur-oder-ingenieurin-nennen https://www.vdi.de/news/detail/wer-darf-sich-ingenieur-oder-... https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-professional-title-and-designations https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-profess... You can call yourself engineer if you feel like it, however in case it comes to some court case due to liabilities and such, there might be some issues coming up with having Eng in that contract signature. Many here would probably say that they have never did the exam, and nonetheless use the title, which is as mentioned, not an issue as long as you don't land in court and the validation of title doesn't come up. Also in most European countries, being an Engineer even if not professionally qualified, automatically means that the person in question took a university degree in engineering, on an university whose engineering degree was certified as such by the government organisation responsible for all engineering professions.
    - yallpendantools 2mo ago
      [MIGHT HAVE INACCURATE IMPLICATIONS BUT PRESERVED FOR POSTERITY:] In Germany I don't think that counts. "Software Engineering" as a title isn't regulated (as kcexn is asking for). The German term "Softwareentwickler" more literally translates to "Software Developer" (as opposed to "Ingenieur") but I don't see companies having problems translating that in job posts and even contracts to "Software Engineer". I've never seen "Softwareingenieur" used tbf. Getting into Germany as a Software Engineer (for app development) is also as relatively frictionless as it gets in comparison to more-traditional engineering fields. Verdi is the German trade union so they have to make these kinds of distinctions about which professions they can represent. Don't quote me on this one but I think Verdi represents very little of the modern "app development" software engineers. I guess those who work for more traditional German industries like auto-manufacturing can fall under their umbrella. --- [LESS INACCURATE EDIT AND MY THOUGHTS IN LESS WORDS:] In Germany "Ingenieur" (Engineer) is a loaded term with legal implications so "Software Engineer" is "Softwareentiwickler" (Software Developer) instead. But really this is an HR sleight-of-hand trick. At the end of the day, getting into professional Softwareentwicklung is the same in Germany as in elsewhere that calls it "Software Engineering" (and IMO is what kcexn was asking about anyway).
      - pjmlp 2mo ago
        Well, I have been well served by I.G. Metal, by working in industries they also covered. Also I have yet to meet anyone doing agency work, that started as Azubi, Quereinsteiger, BWL,... and would sign any document or call themselves Engineers, like it is so very common in US out of a plain bootcamp.
        kcexn 2mo ago
        I don't think Software Engineers in the US would sign any documents that expose them to legal liability as a professional engineer either. It's still not clear to me from this discussion whether the term "Software Engineer" is legally protected in Germany (or any other European country) or if it's just a cultural convention. The distinction is basically, if a software developer started a consultancy developing custom software solutions and called the company XY Software Engineering, would they be penalized for false advertising if they didn't have professional engineering qualifications?
  - a9i 2mo ago
    In Italy: https://www.cni.it/en/engineers-in-italy https://www.cni.it/en/engineers-in-italy
    - pjmlp 2mo ago
      I see there that you also created a workaround for the Bologna changes like we did, the 5 versus 3 years.
      - a9i 2mo ago
        The European Council of Engineers Chambers is seeking to standardise training programmes, beginning with the civil engineering sector: https://www.ecec.net/what-we-do/common-training-framework/ https://www.ecec.net/what-we-do/common-training-framework/. Hopefully, this convergence will extend to other engineering professions.
  - amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
    Before I retired (in the US) the organization I worked for was heavily civil engineering oriented, and they were pretty insistent that the computer folks not call themselves engineers. The state licensing board was pretty insistent too.
    - dpb001 2mo ago
      I was also in a consulting CE firm working in software, but had moved from an engineering position and had an engineering undergrad degree. I was strongly encouraged to get my PE so the company could advertise it, even though the PE credentials had nothing to do with software development.
    - rockemsockem 2mo ago
      I think civil engineering is the main field in the US that relies on certifications/tests for FE/PE, there's probably more I'm unaware of though. As I pointed out above though, aerospace engineers (working on rockets/space applications anyway, IDK about planes) and electrical engineers don't need those tests. Requiring it for CEs seems like a historical artifact more than anything.
  - tremon 2mo ago
    The English term "software engineer" is not a protected title anywhere, FAFAIK. However, the local language equivalent of "engineer" is protected pretty much everywhere in Europe because it was awarded solely at technical colleges and universities. The title is (mostly) equivalent to a Master of Science degree, except that technical colleges could also award it (the English equivalent being Master without field designation).
  - RaftPeople 2mo ago
    > In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers? I think a better question is: what is the criteria those countries use to determine if someone can use the engineer title? In general the software industry is still in an early confused state about standards, approaches, skills, etc. Should we be using functional techniques? Object? Both? Relational? Column store? Push? Pull? etc. The number of ways to build a working system is enormous and we have a fad-of-the-month every 5 years which starts as a silver bullet and always settles down to be just another option for another set of use cases.
- rockemsockem 2mo ago
  This is such a tired take. Aerospace engineers who build rockets do not have some certification body allowing them to be called engineers. Same with most electrical engineers working on almost everything. If you think a government deciding who is an engineer is a *good* thing then maybe you should ask yourself why the United States which doesn't require this for the two non-software engineering disciplines has the best engineers in the world.
  - mattkrause 2mo ago
    Annoyingly, the US government still sometimes does. If you want to take the patent agent exam, your CS degree has to come from an ABET-accredited program, though many of the very good ones aren't (Stanford, CMU). Likewise, federal jobs also sometimes seem to want accreditation but not always.
  - deterministic 2mo ago
    > has the best engineers in the world Really? What evidence do you have for that? Are you saying that companies like Airbus, Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, ASML, Leonardo, Rolls-Royce, Dassault Aviation, Toyota, Bosch, Komatsu, Siemens, ABB, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Alstom, Vestas, Samsung, Sony, Hyundai Heavy Industries, Mitsubishi Shipbuilding etc. don't have world class engineers?
    - SR2Z 2mo ago
      The United States has the best engineers because it pays the best. Good engineers from other places move here to capture some of that. Obviously strict licensing laws would get in the way of that. Outside of some exceptions which don't really exist in the US (shipbuilding and heavy forging) the American companies in those industries are highly competitive and often market share leaders.
      - deterministic 2mo ago
        > The United States has the best engineers because it pays the best Nope. There are many counter examples of companies being world leading without paying world leading salaries to their engineers. It's a big mistake to believe that the only thing all engineers care about is $. Yes it is true for some engineers but not for all.
burgerzzz 2mo ago
Each unit of work in any given feature of a Web app has been implemented 500 times yesterday alone, and nearly each time exactly the same way. I mean that’s what programming basically is right? I’m surprised these patterns that are repeated so often by developers could have been/still be automated away even without AI/LLMs.
- rockemsockem 2mo ago
  One thing I wonder about is how applicable your statement about web apps is to something like lamps or lighting generally. How many electrical engineers have re-designed a circuit that turns on/off a light? Are EEs who wind up doing mundane engineering like this still engineers?
  - vel0city 2mo ago
    "electrical engineers" aren't usually the ones making a lamp though. If you're paying EE wages to add a light switch to an Edison socket you're massively overpaying.
    - rockemsockem 2mo ago
      Lots of things have lights on them though. I'm thinking every status light on every piece of hardware. Edit: also, I'm not exactly filled with knowledge on new lamp design/construction, but I have seen startups/kickstarters that make new lamps that seem like redesigns from the ground up.
      - kcexn 2mo ago
        Most hardware tinkerers are not EE's. But will rely on EE's to certify that their electronics are safe.
  - kcexn 2mo ago
    You don't need to be an "Electrical Engineer" to do simple design work like this. Professional Engineers are qualified to take on more liability than just creating a design. So you don't need an Engineer to design a product, but (depending on jurisdiction) you will need an engineer to certify that your product won't hurt or kill people. If you do a lot of design work, then you may want to hire a Professional Engineer in-house so that your company has more confidence that they will produce compliant designs with fewer iterations. Engineers are often the best people to work with if you need to do things that are done infrequently since theoretically, they're trained in the prerequisite first principles so they can make judgments that are rooted in rigorous analysis in addition to their practical experience.

by kcexn 2mo ago

pjmlp 2mo ago

In the countries where Engineering is a professional title and not something people decide to call themselves, we still know the difference.

kcexn 2mo ago
In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers?
- pjmlp 2mo ago
  In many, I am at least aware of Portugal, Germany and Canada. https://www.lexpoint.pt/Default.aspx?PageId=128&ContentId=60650 https://www.lexpoint.pt/Default.aspx?PageId=128&ContentId=60... https://www.vdi.de/news/detail/wer-darf-sich-ingenieur-oder-ingenieurin-nennen https://www.vdi.de/news/detail/wer-darf-sich-ingenieur-oder-... https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-professional-title-and-designations https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-profess... You can call yourself engineer if you feel like it, however in case it comes to some court case due to liabilities and such, there might be some issues coming up with having Eng in that contract signature. Many here would probably say that they have never did the exam, and nonetheless use the title, which is as mentioned, not an issue as long as you don't land in court and the validation of title doesn't come up. Also in most European countries, being an Engineer even if not professionally qualified, automatically means that the person in question took a university degree in engineering, on an university whose engineering degree was certified as such by the government organisation responsible for all engineering professions.
  - yallpendantools 2mo ago
    [MIGHT HAVE INACCURATE IMPLICATIONS BUT PRESERVED FOR POSTERITY:] In Germany I don't think that counts. "Software Engineering" as a title isn't regulated (as kcexn is asking for). The German term "Softwareentwickler" more literally translates to "Software Developer" (as opposed to "Ingenieur") but I don't see companies having problems translating that in job posts and even contracts to "Software Engineer". I've never seen "Softwareingenieur" used tbf. Getting into Germany as a Software Engineer (for app development) is also as relatively frictionless as it gets in comparison to more-traditional engineering fields. Verdi is the German trade union so they have to make these kinds of distinctions about which professions they can represent. Don't quote me on this one but I think Verdi represents very little of the modern "app development" software engineers. I guess those who work for more traditional German industries like auto-manufacturing can fall under their umbrella. --- [LESS INACCURATE EDIT AND MY THOUGHTS IN LESS WORDS:] In Germany "Ingenieur" (Engineer) is a loaded term with legal implications so "Software Engineer" is "Softwareentiwickler" (Software Developer) instead. But really this is an HR sleight-of-hand trick. At the end of the day, getting into professional Softwareentwicklung is the same in Germany as in elsewhere that calls it "Software Engineering" (and IMO is what kcexn was asking about anyway).
    - pjmlp 2mo ago
      Well, I have been well served by I.G. Metal, by working in industries they also covered. Also I have yet to meet anyone doing agency work, that started as Azubi, Quereinsteiger, BWL,... and would sign any document or call themselves Engineers, like it is so very common in US out of a plain bootcamp.
      - kcexn 2mo ago
        I don't think Software Engineers in the US would sign any documents that expose them to legal liability as a professional engineer either. It's still not clear to me from this discussion whether the term "Software Engineer" is legally protected in Germany (or any other European country) or if it's just a cultural convention. The distinction is basically, if a software developer started a consultancy developing custom software solutions and called the company XY Software Engineering, would they be penalized for false advertising if they didn't have professional engineering qualifications?
- a9i 2mo ago
  In Italy: https://www.cni.it/en/engineers-in-italy https://www.cni.it/en/engineers-in-italy
  - pjmlp 2mo ago
    I see there that you also created a workaround for the Bologna changes like we did, the 5 versus 3 years.
    - a9i 2mo ago
      The European Council of Engineers Chambers is seeking to standardise training programmes, beginning with the civil engineering sector: https://www.ecec.net/what-we-do/common-training-framework/ https://www.ecec.net/what-we-do/common-training-framework/. Hopefully, this convergence will extend to other engineering professions.
- amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
  Before I retired (in the US) the organization I worked for was heavily civil engineering oriented, and they were pretty insistent that the computer folks not call themselves engineers. The state licensing board was pretty insistent too.
  - dpb001 2mo ago
    I was also in a consulting CE firm working in software, but had moved from an engineering position and had an engineering undergrad degree. I was strongly encouraged to get my PE so the company could advertise it, even though the PE credentials had nothing to do with software development.
  - rockemsockem 2mo ago
    I think civil engineering is the main field in the US that relies on certifications/tests for FE/PE, there's probably more I'm unaware of though. As I pointed out above though, aerospace engineers (working on rockets/space applications anyway, IDK about planes) and electrical engineers don't need those tests. Requiring it for CEs seems like a historical artifact more than anything.
- tremon 2mo ago
  The English term "software engineer" is not a protected title anywhere, FAFAIK. However, the local language equivalent of "engineer" is protected pretty much everywhere in Europe because it was awarded solely at technical colleges and universities. The title is (mostly) equivalent to a Master of Science degree, except that technical colleges could also award it (the English equivalent being Master without field designation).
- RaftPeople 2mo ago
  > In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers? I think a better question is: what is the criteria those countries use to determine if someone can use the engineer title? In general the software industry is still in an early confused state about standards, approaches, skills, etc. Should we be using functional techniques? Object? Both? Relational? Column store? Push? Pull? etc. The number of ways to build a working system is enormous and we have a fad-of-the-month every 5 years which starts as a silver bullet and always settles down to be just another option for another set of use cases.
rockemsockem 2mo ago
This is such a tired take. Aerospace engineers who build rockets do not have some certification body allowing them to be called engineers. Same with most electrical engineers working on almost everything. If you think a government deciding who is an engineer is a *good* thing then maybe you should ask yourself why the United States which doesn't require this for the two non-software engineering disciplines has the best engineers in the world.
- mattkrause 2mo ago
  Annoyingly, the US government still sometimes does. If you want to take the patent agent exam, your CS degree has to come from an ABET-accredited program, though many of the very good ones aren't (Stanford, CMU). Likewise, federal jobs also sometimes seem to want accreditation but not always.
- deterministic 2mo ago
  > has the best engineers in the world Really? What evidence do you have for that? Are you saying that companies like Airbus, Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, ASML, Leonardo, Rolls-Royce, Dassault Aviation, Toyota, Bosch, Komatsu, Siemens, ABB, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Alstom, Vestas, Samsung, Sony, Hyundai Heavy Industries, Mitsubishi Shipbuilding etc. don't have world class engineers?
  - SR2Z 2mo ago
    The United States has the best engineers because it pays the best. Good engineers from other places move here to capture some of that. Obviously strict licensing laws would get in the way of that. Outside of some exceptions which don't really exist in the US (shipbuilding and heavy forging) the American companies in those industries are highly competitive and often market share leaders.
    - deterministic 2mo ago
      > The United States has the best engineers because it pays the best Nope. There are many counter examples of companies being world leading without paying world leading salaries to their engineers. It's a big mistake to believe that the only thing all engineers care about is $. Yes it is true for some engineers but not for all.

burgerzzz 2mo ago

Each unit of work in any given feature of a Web app has been implemented 500 times yesterday alone, and nearly each time exactly the same way. I mean that’s what programming basically is right? I’m surprised these patterns that are repeated so often by developers could have been/still be automated away even without AI/LLMs.

rockemsockem 2mo ago
One thing I wonder about is how applicable your statement about web apps is to something like lamps or lighting generally. How many electrical engineers have re-designed a circuit that turns on/off a light? Are EEs who wind up doing mundane engineering like this still engineers?
- vel0city 2mo ago
  "electrical engineers" aren't usually the ones making a lamp though. If you're paying EE wages to add a light switch to an Edison socket you're massively overpaying.
  - rockemsockem 2mo ago
    Lots of things have lights on them though. I'm thinking every status light on every piece of hardware. Edit: also, I'm not exactly filled with knowledge on new lamp design/construction, but I have seen startups/kickstarters that make new lamps that seem like redesigns from the ground up.
    - kcexn 2mo ago
      Most hardware tinkerers are not EE's. But will rely on EE's to certify that their electronics are safe.
- kcexn 2mo ago
  You don't need to be an "Electrical Engineer" to do simple design work like this. Professional Engineers are qualified to take on more liability than just creating a design. So you don't need an Engineer to design a product, but (depending on jurisdiction) you will need an engineer to certify that your product won't hurt or kill people. If you do a lot of design work, then you may want to hire a Professional Engineer in-house so that your company has more confidence that they will produce compliant designs with fewer iterations. Engineers are often the best people to work with if you need to do things that are done infrequently since theoretically, they're trained in the prerequisite first principles so they can make judgments that are rooted in rigorous analysis in addition to their practical experience.