4 ms·

Not nearly the same thing. Trump and his family have made billions. I cannot say the same of von der Leyen.

by sscaryterry 2mo ago

carlosjobim 2mo ago
Which of those two leaders were elected by the people?
- izacus 2mo ago
  Certainly Van Der Leyen. I suggest you show up for next EU election if you don't like the option.
  - krick 2mo ago
    Clearly you have no idea how the head of EC is chosen. Because of the two only Trump was actually elected by the people.
    - izacus 2mo ago
      Remember that Chat control has gone through vote through directly elected parliament like any other legislation. The next election is in 2029. I suggest you show up instead of spreading fabrications online.
      - abc123abc123 2mo ago
        [flagged]
        hamper653 2mo ago
        > People are only allowed to vote on pre-defined options that are decided entirely in private That’s democracy in its purest form.
        abc123abc123 2mo ago
        True. Just like the famous democracy of north korea, china or russia! ;)
        hamper653 2mo ago
        Well yeah. And also the US, the UK or Nazi Germany. That’s what democracy looks like in reality.
        tomhow 2mo ago
        Please don't post flamebait or engage in ideological battle on HN. The guidelines make it clear we're trying for something better here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - Aeolos 2mo ago
      Trump was elected by the electors, not by the people. Not entirely dissimilar from how VDL was elected.
    - afiori 2mo ago
      The elitism of direct democracy is a mystery to me, especially in the case of the US where it is not technically direct and the powers and role of the president are deeply modelled after those of the British crown of the times
  - Silhouette 2mo ago
    How should EU citizens vote at that next election if they are unhappy with von der Leyen's actions as President of the European Commission in order to remove her if enough other voters agree?
    - dubbel 2mo ago
      They should vote for parties that are not organized in the EPP (European people's party). The exact party options depend on the country you're voting in.
      - Silhouette 2mo ago
        And what would happen next to ensure that von der Leyen was removed from office? It is worth remembering at this point how von der Leyen first became Commission President. She was controversially nominated by the European Council - who are not directly elected representatives within the EU system - deviating from the spitzenkandidat convention in a way that surprised and angered many MEPs - who are. Her own national government (Germany) did not support her in the Council voting because one of the parties in the governing coalition opposed her. She was eventually confirmed by a narrow majority in a secret ballot of the European Parliament from which little can therefore be determined about who did or didn't vote for her except that quite a lot of MEPs who were expected to support her candidacy based on public statements did not in fact do so in the secret vote. So she was essentially proposed by a group of people who aren't directly elected at EU level and in some cases aren't even directly elected by the nations they represent - in violation of the normal convention expected by the only people who are directly elected at EU level - and was then narrowly confirmed by that directly elected group only in a secret ballot from which the vote of each individual representative was not recorded and there is therefore no possibility for their own electorates to hold those representatives to account personally for how they voted. Given that we are talking about the most influential political post in the EU this is not exactly a powerful demonstration of democratic legitimacy and a clear popular mandate no matter how you look at it.
        izacus 2mo ago
- ywain 2mo ago
  What's your point? You'd rather have a democratically elected but corrupt leader than an appointed but honest one?
- beezlewax 2mo ago
  The European Parliament is elected by vote and has to ratify the chosen members of the EU council. The president of the council included.
  - eastbound 2mo ago
    No, he has a point. There are various degrees of democracy, between direct and many degrees of indirection. VDL is certainly not a good level of democracy: - Elections are so rare (every 5 years) and encompass so many huge life-altering choices (VDL being one of the criteria only) that it's not democratic. The Swiss vote every important law, like "Should we buy fighter jets". - De facto, party health is part of democracy (look at the Rwanda: It is absolutely possible to have a genocide made by democracies, and it is in fact more frequent than dictatorships) and network effects have made that European parties don't represent the people's will, - Europe dispatches money to countries that need convincing, like Scottland, while wearing the mature members' citizen to the bone. We can't even have decent roads or internet here, while newcomers are super-happy to join ("I'm happy because Europe brought wealth and economic development!!!" - yeah look in 20 years). Money flushing around Europe trying to bribe citizens groups into staying, which makes opposition impossible. The EU is too chicken to let citizen vote every 20 years on whether we should stay in Europe, because then answer would be a big NO. - The kill switch didn't even work, countries can't leave, or there is retaliation. Not only UK but France voted against the new treaties in 2005, the president still signed them. The EU is the most lazy level of democracy. It's a knee-jerk reaction to say that VDL can be removed from office by the citizen.
    - izacus 2mo ago
      There is no country in the world that fits your definition of democracy, so why are you attacking EU specifically?
    - ywain 2mo ago
      > look at the Rwanda: It is absolutely possible to have a genocide made by democracies, Rwanda has never been a democracy. Habyarimana was "elected" with 99% of the votes ffs. > and it is in fact more frequent than dictatorships It is trivially easy to verify that this is not true.
- Barrin92 2mo ago
  I'm not sure what that's supposed to imply because if Ursula von der Leyen manages to be less corrupt without being elected by the people that has some uncharitable consequences for the quality of the American electorate, I think HL Mencken had something to say on this
  - jacquesm 2mo ago
    Technically, the US president is also not elected by the people but by the electors, which in many ways is comparable to how the EU elected the EU Commission President.
- benj111 2mo ago
  So? If you're directly elected by the people you can behave how you damn well please? Except trump isn't because you have the electoral college. I live in the UK, on paper we have an absolutely terrible version of democracy. No constitution, and un elected head of state. Compared to pre pull out Afghanistan it sucks. And yet we are still here. Perfect on paper democracy isn't the be all and end all. It's about institutional culture. The EU has a much better democratic culture than the US does.
- hamper653 2mo ago
  American presidents are notoriously not elected by the people.

Not nearly the same thing. Trump and his family have made billions. I cannot say the same of von der Leyen.

carlosjobim 2mo ago

Which of those two leaders were elected by the people?

izacus 2mo ago
Certainly Van Der Leyen. I suggest you show up for next EU election if you don't like the option.
- krick 2mo ago
  Clearly you have no idea how the head of EC is chosen. Because of the two only Trump was actually elected by the people.
  - izacus 2mo ago
    Remember that Chat control has gone through vote through directly elected parliament like any other legislation. The next election is in 2029. I suggest you show up instead of spreading fabrications online.
    - abc123abc123 2mo ago
      [flagged]
      - hamper653 2mo ago
        > People are only allowed to vote on pre-defined options that are decided entirely in private That’s democracy in its purest form.
        abc123abc123 2mo ago
        True. Just like the famous democracy of north korea, china or russia! ;)
        hamper653 2mo ago
        Well yeah. And also the US, the UK or Nazi Germany. That’s what democracy looks like in reality.
      - tomhow 2mo ago
        Please don't post flamebait or engage in ideological battle on HN. The guidelines make it clear we're trying for something better here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Aeolos 2mo ago
    Trump was elected by the electors, not by the people. Not entirely dissimilar from how VDL was elected.
  - afiori 2mo ago
    The elitism of direct democracy is a mystery to me, especially in the case of the US where it is not technically direct and the powers and role of the president are deeply modelled after those of the British crown of the times
- Silhouette 2mo ago
  How should EU citizens vote at that next election if they are unhappy with von der Leyen's actions as President of the European Commission in order to remove her if enough other voters agree?
  - dubbel 2mo ago
    They should vote for parties that are not organized in the EPP (European people's party). The exact party options depend on the country you're voting in.
    - Silhouette 2mo ago
      And what would happen next to ensure that von der Leyen was removed from office? It is worth remembering at this point how von der Leyen first became Commission President. She was controversially nominated by the European Council - who are not directly elected representatives within the EU system - deviating from the spitzenkandidat convention in a way that surprised and angered many MEPs - who are. Her own national government (Germany) did not support her in the Council voting because one of the parties in the governing coalition opposed her. She was eventually confirmed by a narrow majority in a secret ballot of the European Parliament from which little can therefore be determined about who did or didn't vote for her except that quite a lot of MEPs who were expected to support her candidacy based on public statements did not in fact do so in the secret vote. So she was essentially proposed by a group of people who aren't directly elected at EU level and in some cases aren't even directly elected by the nations they represent - in violation of the normal convention expected by the only people who are directly elected at EU level - and was then narrowly confirmed by that directly elected group only in a secret ballot from which the vote of each individual representative was not recorded and there is therefore no possibility for their own electorates to hold those representatives to account personally for how they voted. Given that we are talking about the most influential political post in the EU this is not exactly a powerful demonstration of democratic legitimacy and a clear popular mandate no matter how you look at it.
      - izacus 2mo ago
ywain 2mo ago
What's your point? You'd rather have a democratically elected but corrupt leader than an appointed but honest one?
beezlewax 2mo ago
The European Parliament is elected by vote and has to ratify the chosen members of the EU council. The president of the council included.
- eastbound 2mo ago
  No, he has a point. There are various degrees of democracy, between direct and many degrees of indirection. VDL is certainly not a good level of democracy: - Elections are so rare (every 5 years) and encompass so many huge life-altering choices (VDL being one of the criteria only) that it's not democratic. The Swiss vote every important law, like "Should we buy fighter jets". - De facto, party health is part of democracy (look at the Rwanda: It is absolutely possible to have a genocide made by democracies, and it is in fact more frequent than dictatorships) and network effects have made that European parties don't represent the people's will, - Europe dispatches money to countries that need convincing, like Scottland, while wearing the mature members' citizen to the bone. We can't even have decent roads or internet here, while newcomers are super-happy to join ("I'm happy because Europe brought wealth and economic development!!!" - yeah look in 20 years). Money flushing around Europe trying to bribe citizens groups into staying, which makes opposition impossible. The EU is too chicken to let citizen vote every 20 years on whether we should stay in Europe, because then answer would be a big NO. - The kill switch didn't even work, countries can't leave, or there is retaliation. Not only UK but France voted against the new treaties in 2005, the president still signed them. The EU is the most lazy level of democracy. It's a knee-jerk reaction to say that VDL can be removed from office by the citizen.
  - izacus 2mo ago
    There is no country in the world that fits your definition of democracy, so why are you attacking EU specifically?
  - ywain 2mo ago
    > look at the Rwanda: It is absolutely possible to have a genocide made by democracies, Rwanda has never been a democracy. Habyarimana was "elected" with 99% of the votes ffs. > and it is in fact more frequent than dictatorships It is trivially easy to verify that this is not true.
Barrin92 2mo ago
I'm not sure what that's supposed to imply because if Ursula von der Leyen manages to be less corrupt without being elected by the people that has some uncharitable consequences for the quality of the American electorate, I think HL Mencken had something to say on this
- jacquesm 2mo ago
  Technically, the US president is also not elected by the people but by the electors, which in many ways is comparable to how the EU elected the EU Commission President.
benj111 2mo ago
So? If you're directly elected by the people you can behave how you damn well please? Except trump isn't because you have the electoral college. I live in the UK, on paper we have an absolutely terrible version of democracy. No constitution, and un elected head of state. Compared to pre pull out Afghanistan it sucks. And yet we are still here. Perfect on paper democracy isn't the be all and end all. It's about institutional culture. The EU has a much better democratic culture than the US does.
hamper653 2mo ago
American presidents are notoriously not elected by the people.