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Let’s distinguish a bit. There are political appointees (Trump’s government employees as you say) who are mostly upper management, and there are career civil se

by rsfern 2mo ago

Let’s distinguish a bit. There are political appointees (Trump’s government employees as you say) who are mostly upper management, and there are career civil servants (all the government scientists are under this category) who have a strong culture of apolitical dedication to the mission of their agency and to the American people and Constitution, regardless of who the current president is. And in the DOE labs in particular most (not all) of the scientists are actually employed as government contractors, but they have a similar non-partisan ethos. That doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no need to be concerned with potential impact of policy and priority changes from the administration, but it does temper the threat model because the government employees you’re considering trusting have given oaths of office to protect and defend the Constitution.

frumiousirc 2mo ago
> and there are career civil servants (all the government scientists are under this category) US national lab scientists are not even civil servants. The labs themselves are run by a corporation under contract to the DOE and the scientists work for that corp. The managing corporation changes from time to time and the scientists transparently start working for whatever assumes the replacement. The land, the hardware, the buildings and any physical products are owned by the US gov't. To a very large extent, the intellectual output is set free to the world in the form of papers, presentations and to some small extent (eg compared to CERN) in the form of software.
- rsfern 2mo ago
  Right, I did specifically say that most of the DOE scientists are contractors, but I concede the phrase “government scientist” is a bit ambiguous. I appreciate the extra detail you added. I think the distinction between political appointee and scientist/researcher stands. As an added complication, some of the DOE labs do have civil servant scientists, for example National Energy Technology Lab and National Renewable Energy Lab are like 50/50 civil servants and contractors. And most of the funding arm of DOE are career civil servants. LANL, Sandia, Livermore, Argonne are all staffed by contractors
  - NegativeK 2mo ago
    > I think the distinction between political appointee and scientist/researcher stands. I agree with this. I'm a civil servant and I know (personally; my work is nowhere near the labs) a number of people who work or have worked in that weird contracting DOE/DOD structure that includes the labs. The difference I've seen is far more from the nature of work rather than the employment details.

by rsfern 2mo ago

frumiousirc 2mo ago

> and there are career civil servants (all the government scientists are under this category) US national lab scientists are not even civil servants. The labs themselves are run by a corporation under contract to the DOE and the scientists work for that corp. The managing corporation changes from time to time and the scientists transparently start working for whatever assumes the replacement. The land, the hardware, the buildings and any physical products are owned by the US gov't. To a very large extent, the intellectual output is set free to the world in the form of papers, presentations and to some small extent (eg compared to CERN) in the form of software.

rsfern 2mo ago
Right, I did specifically say that most of the DOE scientists are contractors, but I concede the phrase “government scientist” is a bit ambiguous. I appreciate the extra detail you added. I think the distinction between political appointee and scientist/researcher stands. As an added complication, some of the DOE labs do have civil servant scientists, for example National Energy Technology Lab and National Renewable Energy Lab are like 50/50 civil servants and contractors. And most of the funding arm of DOE are career civil servants. LANL, Sandia, Livermore, Argonne are all staffed by contractors
- NegativeK 2mo ago
  > I think the distinction between political appointee and scientist/researcher stands. I agree with this. I'm a civil servant and I know (personally; my work is nowhere near the labs) a number of people who work or have worked in that weird contracting DOE/DOD structure that includes the labs. The difference I've seen is far more from the nature of work rather than the employment details.