3 ms·

In the same way that I have to think about how to respond and think about why you have a negative reaction to what I wrote, I also have to struggle with a reaso

by chaps 2mo ago

In the same way that I have to think about how to respond and think about why you have a negative reaction to what I wrote, I also have to struggle with a reasonable way of communicating why I think you don't understand what I wrote. I think the point that you're missing from my post is: I don't think anybody actually says that guitar hero is like playing a guitar so I'm confused about where this idea comes from (that people think practicing guitar hero will productively lead to being able to play that). I just don't understand where that seemingly rigid argument comes from because I've not met a single person who actually believes that. The only people who are saying that way are people who have negative feelings towards the game in the context of music. To me, that's pretentiousness because it assumes the thoughts of the people who play the game. It reminds me of people talking shit about Chicago who've never been to Chicago. But ultimately I think my point is that people are going to flail, but we shouldn't immediately assume that people don't get anything out of them. You seem to have an absolute position that it's all or nothing -- surely you don't actually think you've learned NOTHING from playing Fallout? Nothing about yourself? Nothing about game mechanics? There's much more to learn than what's "formally" presented and each person gets something different. Like, I've been playing with cipher mechanisms with LLMs... and after getting frustrated with all that, I'm now learning how to draw so that I can make my own similar cryptographic puzzles. Wouldn't have gotten there if I hadn't stumbled blindly for a bit. So in the same way that you wouldn't invalidate my path towards music, I'd hope you wouldn't invalidate my path towards drawing. There's a middle point somewhere in between that you seem hesitant to intellectually venture towards.

scarecrowbob 2mo ago
"surely you don't actually think you've learned NOTHING from playing Fallout? Nothing about yourself?" Well, I did write out a couple of paragraphs about what I thought I learned. I did indeed "learn how to play fallout". Which is pleasant. Like learning to play Rock Band or Sing Star or Guitar Hero was also pleasant. And although I initially thought that maybe all those "ethically good" decisions I found gratifying might improve my ability to make ethically good choices in the larger world, I believe I was incorrect. And further, because of the highly contrived nature of the game and it's uncanny closeness to the material world, it might be actually harmful: it encouraged me to pretend I am ethical when in fact it has brought me to do literally nothing with other people. My point is probably getting hung up on the mechanics of drumming, which I have struggled with off and on for the last 30 years now. So instead, I'll say what I have to say about writing and general LLM usage and be done: The real difficulties of writing are a positive adjunct to my thinking, and I believe that almost all of the intellectual things I have struggled with (from learning to read the log files in Linux to predicting what is wrong with the engine in my car) all benefit from the same struggle. Removing that effort by crapping half-formed thought in and out of an LLM might not be a big deal or even improve the work of folks who have already learned how to think through these complex systems. However, that flailing certainly doesn't help people get better at thinking in the way that writing or troubleshooting complex systems might. Further, unlike Guitar Hero an LLM might encourage folks to just "play the game" instead of actually breaking out of the bounds of that game. Because it produces tangible output (from poetry to PLC code), the folks using these "ways of thinking" often feel that they are "doing the same thing" in the same way that I can "bench press" 2-tons-of-steel with a front end loader. And that intentional confusion between "getting better at doing stuff" and "a lot more crap got done" isn't a good thing to me. That is the point: a lot of folks do in fact think that creating with an LLM is the same as the process of learning to create. My point isn't to say that if your motivations for drawing or drumming or whatever come from XYZ, then they aren't valid. I'm also not claiming that picture books about airplanes are bad because they encourage children to become bomber pilots. People have all kinds of strange and complex motivations, some better than others. I'd trade your "enjoyment of video games" for "my parents' failures as 'professional' musicians" any day of the week. My own reasons for going out tonight and playing double bass with my jazz band are way more sus, weird, dumb, illegitimate, whatever and have way less to do with my (very real) love of playing music with my people than anything I think some rando on the internet is going to divulge. Rather, the point is that struggling and sucking at drawing until you figure out how to do it in a way that feels good can easily get short-circuited by midjourney or whatever. The hidden midpoint that you think I am hesitant about might be all the pedagogical materials in-between: the scales, drum rudiments, gesture drawings, forum postings, low-rent bar gigs, half-assed bug ridden toy PHP scripts, bizarre sophomore manifestos, bad poetry, broken song lyrics, iffy recitals, lessons with bored teachers, incorrect tableture. Those things are all "pretensions" in your sense: those are all on spectra where folks flail as they approach "doing the thing". And they are all a-okay. The limit on that spectrum, though is the LLM and the Guitar Hero, where folks are barely even "flailing". Like all parts of a spectrum are on the spectrum, but which is to be avoided if the other end of the spectrum is "good". And I probably wouldn't bother writing that out if there weren't LLMs didn't have literal cults forming around them...
- chaps 2mo ago
  > Well, I did write out a couple of paragraphs about what I thought I learned. > And further, because of the highly contrived nature of the game and it's uncanny closeness to the material world, it might be actually harmful: it encouraged me to pretend I am ethical when in fact it has brought me to do literally nothing with other people. I think you're underselling the second paragraph here as not learning something! "what I thought I learned" includes this lesson. > I'd trade your "enjoyment of video games" for "my parents' failures as 'professional' musicians" any day of the week. My dad used to be a traveling musician before he joined the army for reasons he won't tell me until I'm older (he told me that in my 30s so hmmmm), so, I totally get this. Anywho, great chat. I appreciate the heck out of your perspective. Jam on!

by chaps 2mo ago

scarecrowbob 2mo ago

"surely you don't actually think you've learned NOTHING from playing Fallout? Nothing about yourself?" Well, I did write out a couple of paragraphs about what I thought I learned. I did indeed "learn how to play fallout". Which is pleasant. Like learning to play Rock Band or Sing Star or Guitar Hero was also pleasant. And although I initially thought that maybe all those "ethically good" decisions I found gratifying might improve my ability to make ethically good choices in the larger world, I believe I was incorrect. And further, because of the highly contrived nature of the game and it's uncanny closeness to the material world, it might be actually harmful: it encouraged me to pretend I am ethical when in fact it has brought me to do literally nothing with other people. My point is probably getting hung up on the mechanics of drumming, which I have struggled with off and on for the last 30 years now. So instead, I'll say what I have to say about writing and general LLM usage and be done: The real difficulties of writing are a positive adjunct to my thinking, and I believe that almost all of the intellectual things I have struggled with (from learning to read the log files in Linux to predicting what is wrong with the engine in my car) all benefit from the same struggle. Removing that effort by crapping half-formed thought in and out of an LLM might not be a big deal or even improve the work of folks who have already learned how to think through these complex systems. However, that flailing certainly doesn't help people get better at thinking in the way that writing or troubleshooting complex systems might. Further, unlike Guitar Hero an LLM might encourage folks to just "play the game" instead of actually breaking out of the bounds of that game. Because it produces tangible output (from poetry to PLC code), the folks using these "ways of thinking" often feel that they are "doing the same thing" in the same way that I can "bench press" 2-tons-of-steel with a front end loader. And that intentional confusion between "getting better at doing stuff" and "a lot more crap got done" isn't a good thing to me. That is the point: a lot of folks do in fact think that creating with an LLM is the same as the process of learning to create. My point isn't to say that if your motivations for drawing or drumming or whatever come from XYZ, then they aren't valid. I'm also not claiming that picture books about airplanes are bad because they encourage children to become bomber pilots. People have all kinds of strange and complex motivations, some better than others. I'd trade your "enjoyment of video games" for "my parents' failures as 'professional' musicians" any day of the week. My own reasons for going out tonight and playing double bass with my jazz band are way more sus, weird, dumb, illegitimate, whatever and have way less to do with my (very real) love of playing music with my people than anything I think some rando on the internet is going to divulge. Rather, the point is that struggling and sucking at drawing until you figure out how to do it in a way that feels good can easily get short-circuited by midjourney or whatever. The hidden midpoint that you think I am hesitant about might be all the pedagogical materials in-between: the scales, drum rudiments, gesture drawings, forum postings, low-rent bar gigs, half-assed bug ridden toy PHP scripts, bizarre sophomore manifestos, bad poetry, broken song lyrics, iffy recitals, lessons with bored teachers, incorrect tableture. Those things are all "pretensions" in your sense: those are all on spectra where folks flail as they approach "doing the thing". And they are all a-okay. The limit on that spectrum, though is the LLM and the Guitar Hero, where folks are barely even "flailing". Like all parts of a spectrum are on the spectrum, but which is to be avoided if the other end of the spectrum is "good". And I probably wouldn't bother writing that out if there weren't LLMs didn't have literal cults forming around them...

chaps 2mo ago
> Well, I did write out a couple of paragraphs about what I thought I learned. > And further, because of the highly contrived nature of the game and it's uncanny closeness to the material world, it might be actually harmful: it encouraged me to pretend I am ethical when in fact it has brought me to do literally nothing with other people. I think you're underselling the second paragraph here as not learning something! "what I thought I learned" includes this lesson. > I'd trade your "enjoyment of video games" for "my parents' failures as 'professional' musicians" any day of the week. My dad used to be a traveling musician before he joined the army for reasons he won't tell me until I'm older (he told me that in my 30s so hmmmm), so, I totally get this. Anywho, great chat. I appreciate the heck out of your perspective. Jam on!