4 ms·

Well personal space and personal time were not in abundant supply in our times of growth. It is true that urban areas have far fewer children than rural areas a

by arjie 3mo ago

Well personal space and personal time were not in abundant supply in our times of growth. It is true that urban areas have far fewer children than rural areas and that this is a worldwide property. It’s a pity since I like the ability for kids to walk to places and take the bus or train and I’ve grown up in a rural place (pythons and peacocks, cows and birds, scorpions and cobras!) and in a highly urbanized environment and they both have their advantages. I personally think it’s just opportunity cost. Children seem like a big deal with unclear benefit and so as people get the chance to substitute with other things they do so. For my part, we put a lot of work into having kids and we live in SF. If we leave, it’ll be because my daughters don’t have mobility here because crime and cars impede their independent movement.

cyberax 3mo ago
> I personally think it’s just opportunity cost. Nope. It's just time and personal living space. It's THAT simple. Go on, try to plan your day with transit and no car if you have 3 children (with 2-3 year age gaps). You'll find that this really works only if everything is concentrated, or if it's a full-time job for you. That's why we hear so much about "15-minute neighborhoods". But when everything is concentrated, it becomes EXPENSIVE and you also lose any semblance of choice. You will likely have only one school, one daycare, one community center. You become hemmed in within that "walkable" neighborhood. That park nearby? It surely can look nice, but what if it's the only park within reasonable walking distance? So you don't even have an _option_ to go somewhere else with kids, without making it a full-day trip? People like to laugh at Texas, about how riding an SUV to a walkable park is ridiculous. But is it, really? The way to fix all of it? Suburbs and cars. Cars provide personal freedom and personal space. That's also why the US had a higher birth rate for much longer than Europe, and it started cratering once young people were forced (by the economy) to move into dense city cores.
- arjie 3mo ago
  That's how I grew up in a family of four in India and my parents are surgeons so we didn't really have them able to take us places for the majority of time. TFR at the time was 4.0 and we had access to contraception etc. and the majority of our trips here in SF are on foot as well. There are therefore some hidden assumptions here. We do take the car to the paediatrician etc. but I should soon have an Urban Arrow / R&M bike and will see how it performs.
- matchbok3 3mo ago
  You seem to have a axe to grind against cities. And based on how you describe them, you actually never lived in a city with children. If you think most families who live in a city only have access to "one" park or "one" daycare you must be joking. Things are denser in cities. What do you think all that dense stuff is? It's parks and daycare and stuff. Maintaining a car payment, gas, garage, oil changes, etc is not "freedom". Surely it's fine for many people, but cars do not equal "freedom" in any sense of the word. Their use is entirely dependent on government spending, just like transit.
  - cyberax 3mo ago
    > You seem to have a axe to grind against cities. Yup. > And based on how you describe them, you actually never lived in a city with children. Nope. I also grew up in a city. > What do you think all that dense stuff is? It's parks and daycare and stuff. Daycare and parks for other people who live closer to them. Not that you're forbidden to visit other parks, you just won't do that because it's going to take too much time. > Maintaining a car payment, gas, garage, oil changes, etc is not "freedom". Paying hundreds of thousands for transit is also not freedom. Cities are EXPENSIVE. Just one trip on a subway in NYC costs around $20!
    - matchbok3 3mo ago
      Sorry, I didn't realize you're a parody account. A typical trip on the NYC subway is not 20 dollars haha. You almost got me. Thanks for the jokes bud. Hilarious that there are serious people who say mostly the stuff you are saying (but actually believe it!)
      - cyberax 3mo ago
        > A typical trip on the NYC subway is not 20 dollars haha. Yes, it is. It's a part of how urbanists hide the true cost of that "transit freedom". Divide the yearly budget of the MTA ($21.3 billion) by the number of rides (1.28 billion). > Hilarious that there are serious people who say mostly the stuff you are saying (but actually believe it!) Perhaps you should do a bit of self-reflection instead of just parroting things you've heard?

by arjie 3mo ago

cyberax 3mo ago

> I personally think it’s just opportunity cost. Nope. It's just time and personal living space. It's THAT simple. Go on, try to plan your day with transit and no car if you have 3 children (with 2-3 year age gaps). You'll find that this really works only if everything is concentrated, or if it's a full-time job for you. That's why we hear so much about "15-minute neighborhoods". But when everything is concentrated, it becomes EXPENSIVE and you also lose any semblance of choice. You will likely have only one school, one daycare, one community center. You become hemmed in within that "walkable" neighborhood. That park nearby? It surely can look nice, but what if it's the only park within reasonable walking distance? So you don't even have an _option_ to go somewhere else with kids, without making it a full-day trip? People like to laugh at Texas, about how riding an SUV to a walkable park is ridiculous. But is it, really? The way to fix all of it? Suburbs and cars. Cars provide personal freedom and personal space. That's also why the US had a higher birth rate for much longer than Europe, and it started cratering once young people were forced (by the economy) to move into dense city cores.

arjie 3mo ago
That's how I grew up in a family of four in India and my parents are surgeons so we didn't really have them able to take us places for the majority of time. TFR at the time was 4.0 and we had access to contraception etc. and the majority of our trips here in SF are on foot as well. There are therefore some hidden assumptions here. We do take the car to the paediatrician etc. but I should soon have an Urban Arrow / R&M bike and will see how it performs.
matchbok3 3mo ago
You seem to have a axe to grind against cities. And based on how you describe them, you actually never lived in a city with children. If you think most families who live in a city only have access to "one" park or "one" daycare you must be joking. Things are denser in cities. What do you think all that dense stuff is? It's parks and daycare and stuff. Maintaining a car payment, gas, garage, oil changes, etc is not "freedom". Surely it's fine for many people, but cars do not equal "freedom" in any sense of the word. Their use is entirely dependent on government spending, just like transit.
- cyberax 3mo ago
  > You seem to have a axe to grind against cities. Yup. > And based on how you describe them, you actually never lived in a city with children. Nope. I also grew up in a city. > What do you think all that dense stuff is? It's parks and daycare and stuff. Daycare and parks for other people who live closer to them. Not that you're forbidden to visit other parks, you just won't do that because it's going to take too much time. > Maintaining a car payment, gas, garage, oil changes, etc is not "freedom". Paying hundreds of thousands for transit is also not freedom. Cities are EXPENSIVE. Just one trip on a subway in NYC costs around $20!
  - matchbok3 3mo ago
    Sorry, I didn't realize you're a parody account. A typical trip on the NYC subway is not 20 dollars haha. You almost got me. Thanks for the jokes bud. Hilarious that there are serious people who say mostly the stuff you are saying (but actually believe it!)
    - cyberax 3mo ago
      > A typical trip on the NYC subway is not 20 dollars haha. Yes, it is. It's a part of how urbanists hide the true cost of that "transit freedom". Divide the yearly budget of the MTA ($21.3 billion) by the number of rides (1.28 billion). > Hilarious that there are serious people who say mostly the stuff you are saying (but actually believe it!) Perhaps you should do a bit of self-reflection instead of just parroting things you've heard?