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Why Geeks Should Care About Sports

42 points by shakes 14y ago

xpose2000 14y ago
As someone who runs a bootstrapped sports company (focus on american sports), I would like to add that it's very seasonal and unpredictable (in a bad way). You never know when a lockout might occur to hurt your business. In fact, there have been 3 lockouts in the past 4 years. NHL is STILL locked out from Oct, with half their season gone and no deal in sight. There are seasonal changes that impact your business. Fall/Winter are wonderful since the NBA, NFL, and NHL are playing. NFL especially dominates in terms of eyeballs. You can combine all other sports and it still won't equal NFL's popularity and how it drives user interest. Once the NFL season ends, so does your revenue and/or traffic. In the summer, you basically just have baseball and limp through wishing September would come quicker.
- patrickk 14y ago
  > You can combine all other sports and it still won't equal NFL's popularity and how it drives user interest. Cough soccer cough.
  - xpose2000 14y ago
    This is true, though I am speaking about USA sports.
- dusing 14y ago
  Agreed, we do 90% of our revenue in the 3rd and 4th quarter, and the NHL lockout was a huge hit to our growth trajectory this year.
gearoidoc 14y ago
The amount of money being spent in the professional arena of a sport nor the attitude of an over-zealous parent who you've never met should not hold people back from enjoying sports. Those who dismiss sports as being "for jocks" are not better than those who consider computers "for nerds".
- csense 14y ago
  > Those who dismiss sports as being "for jocks" are not better than those who consider computers "for nerds". Sports are irrelevant to living in the modern world; we can leave them to the jocks. Computers are not; knowing how to use a cell phone or the Internet helps enormously with many inevitable tasks of daily life. The fact that cheap computers became possible a few decades ago means our lifestyles are quite different from before that time. The fact that the Red team beat the Blue team in the Capture the Flag Series Bowl Cup a few decades ago is largely irrelevant to most people -- even to most sports fans.
  - gearoidoc 14y ago
    > Sports are irrelevant to living in the modern world So am I not living in the modern world? Playing (and following) sports helps improve communication, discipline, teamwork and leadership without mentioning the obvious health benefits. Oh and guess what? A decent sports knowledge helps enormously with connecting with your fellow man, something I get the feeling you may have trouble with.
illumin8 14y ago
The argument seems to mainly be: Sports are unpredictable, code is always predictable, so try to make your apps have the excitement of unpredictable experiences. Also, there is a lot of money in sports. No thanks. I believe designers should strive for predictable experiences when it comes to product design. Unpredictability is the #1 reason why I get those evening phone calls from my 84 year old father-in-law who just saw a new message on his computer and doesn't know what to do... Regarding the money aspect: Those of us that don't really like sports think it is pretty appalling that so much money is spent on mindless entertainment. In so many Texas towns young boys are being told they will never be men unless they play full contact football and sustain debilitating head injuries at an extremely young age. They spend their entire school life being forced by their parents to try and attain some unattainable dream of being a professional athlete, and being deprived of a good education and a healthy life. Is this not a shame that our society places so much value on sports that we would destroy our kids lives to try and live our dreams through them? I choose not to contribute my money and energy to sports because there are many other things in this world that are much more deserving of my time.
- espadagroup 14y ago
  It's fine if you don't like sports, though I think you're giving sports a pretty bad rep. Sure there maybe a few crazy Texas high schools but overall sports are doing a whole lot more good (team collaboration, weight loss, fun, etc..) for society and the people who play them then bad. Physical forms of entertainment have and will always be around, it's human nature; better football than the arena.
- gmichnikov 14y ago
  You appear to have reduced "sports" to "American football". There are a lot of sports out there. Most of them do not come with risks of debilitating head injuries. Participating in sports is a great way for people to stay healthy, build confidence, be part of a team, etc. By and large they are a great thing for kids. I can't imagine how one would find data for this, but I imagine that the percentage of sports-loving parents who push their kids to be pro athletes is about zero.
Swizec 14y ago
> Sports are the exact opposite, they are almost completely unpredictable. No they are not. Sports are very predictable, but they are a stochastic process. You simply have to use a different way to reason about them. A lot or programmers deal with stochastic processes as well and we have plenty of tools at our disposal that make us able of reasoning about even the most random seeming stuff. Case in point: software that predicts how many cash registers a store might need to never have a single person waiting for more than 3 minutes, while keeping costs at an optimum. Good movie on this subject: Moneyball
- Too 14y ago
  Another vote for moneyball. Very good movie on the subject
- mcos 14y ago
  If you've seen the movie, I'd highly recommend "Moneyball" the book too. It goes into a lot of great detail that the movie doesn't deal with.
untog 14y ago
There will, I'm sure, be a lot of replies about how "I don't care about sports and you can't make me"- which is fair enough. This stuff is very subjective. But the point made about disruption in sports is interesting- I've seen a ton of developers working on pick-up game organisers, and a few fantasy leagues, but nothing more significant than that. The locked-in nature of sports licensing makes it very difficult to 'disrupt' any sports franchise without the consent of the owner- I suspect that will continue to be a barrier.
addlepate 14y ago
I should like sports because it could make me money. No thanks.
mbesto 14y ago
Just because a team is valued at $2.2bil doesn't mean there is $2.2bil worth of money floating around to be made. Yes, there is money to be made in Sports & Entertainment, but that approach is misguided. To give you a better idea. EPL clubs brought in £2.3bil last year[1] but lost £361m. These losses are largely due to wages: "In total, £1.5bn was spent on wages by the 20 clubs in 2010-11 (including Birmingham's £38m wage bill in 2009‑10). That accounted for 69% of the clubs' total income, slightly up from the 68% of income the clubs spent in 2009‑10 on wages." So if you can somehow improve efficiencies for the other 31% of the costs then you could probably make some decent money. Sports is highly irrational when it comes to business. [1]- http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/23/premier-league-losses-2010-11-profits http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/23/premier-leagu...
- lmm 14y ago
  Why not go for the big fish: find clubs a way to cut their wage bill while maintaining performance. There's plenty of money in that.
  - mbesto 14y ago
    Yup! Especially in the EPL where they are now in talks of adopting UEFA's financial fair play model.[1] Without knowing enough about the intricacies of the inefficiencies of club management and at least 70% of their costs coming from wages (which can't be reduced by technology), I'm not sure where things can be improved. [1]- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/9542469/Premier-League-could-adopt-Uefas-financial-fair-play-regulations-as-early-as-the-2013-14-season.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premi...
- patrickk 14y ago
  I believe it was in the book "Inverting the Pyramid" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-T...) that I read the phrase "Financially, you can think of football as a transfer of wealth from the fans to players". Players are the only ones who make any real money from football (maybe Sky Sports does too, but they have to bid billions for secure the rights and then spend years recouping the cost). The author goes on to state that the highest earning football club (think it was either Real Madrid or Manchester United) made only a tiny fraction of revenue of the lowest ranked, anonymous company on the Fortune 500 index. Football is not played for financial reasons.
mynegation 14y ago
When I read the title I was totally prepared to read why geeks should exercise more. At least two and may be even all of the arguments in the OP work even better if you do sports yourself, as you see the world of sports from inside. I am not against pro sports as an entertainment, but doing it yourself, as opposed to sitting on the couch or stadium seat is so much better for your health.
redwood 14y ago
While I am not a big sports fan (except for one particular sport) I want to chime on on what I thought this article would be about, but wasn't: Sports are valuable to know about, because so many peers, especially in other functions, value them. It's not that you need to even devote time to sports, or to know anything. It's that posturing that shows you respect others' interests in sports, is valuable. In fact this applies to any set of interets, however mainstream, nerdy, alpha, or etc: whether sports, videogames, brewing, or bee-keeping. Always show interest and genuine respect for others' interests, instead of dismissing them. I'll never forget a guy in high school who overheard me talking about a computer game... he said "Oh... you're still playing games? I stopped in middle school!". I've thought of him as an ass hole ever since. And it wasn't that he didn't play games (or enjoy sports, or etc): it was that he was arrogant and dismissive of my interest and put me down indirectly as a result. Never be arrogant and dismissive of others' interests: show appreciation and respect... sometimes it helps to just genuinely look for what others enjoy. If you can't find it: pretend! You'll find enormous benefit in terms of how much others like you as a result: and this is important in any group. Especially for something as massively popular as sports, don't fall into the trap.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Yes! Especially if you're the enterprising type, being able to relate to people's interest, and sports is a common interest, is an extremely useful life skill. I'm not a huge sports fan, but I've picked a lot up by osmosis since I did ACC UG/Big 10 grad school. I can't tell you how often an interviewer has lightened up and become more engaged after I brought up his alma mater's football team. It's not just for show. It's social lubricant. It allows you to feel each other out while talking about a relatively neutral topic that neither of you have a big investment into, to cut down the tension involved in talking about the business discussion at hand.
  - redwood 14y ago
    Spot on: in fact you bring up another great point... local knowledge is a wonderful thing to share and when someone feels you know something about their special place, they're always impressed! The film Lincoln did a good job of showing old Abe doing that quite a bit in order to gain favor :)
lectrick 14y ago
It's definitely a market opportunity (see: the movie Moneyball), but I wouldn't say programmers should just go into sports unless they actually love sports (and programming). While this type of person is rare, they exist, and it's their market to own, basically.
LiveFanChat 14y ago
Our whole team loves sports :) but i figure that makes sense http://www.LiveFanChat.com/sites http://www.LiveFanChat.com/sites
mmcconnell1618 14y ago
I'm not a big sports fan. Neither is my Dad and I'm sure that's part of the reason why I never 'got' sports. For the longest time I wondered why so many apparently sane people were addicted to a specific sports team or would spend tons of money to own a jersey with their favorite player's number. Then I learned about mirror neurons. The human brain has been shown through functional MRI studies to 'mirror' emotions that are watched. Speculation suggests this evolved as a way for one person to empathize with another's situation. How does this relate to sports? It turns out that if you're watching someone hit a home run at the crucial moment in the game your brain gives you a little 'hit' of the same emotion that actual player is feeling. In other words, people who love watching sports have a physical reaction that makes them feel the highs and lows of the players. I no longer assume that people addicted to sports are just in it for the beer.
crazygringo 14y ago
I've tried to get into watching sports for years, because it's something extra to have in common with people, and I really wish I could share it. But now, at 32, having tried probably about 10 times, I realize I just can't. I just don't care. I care about politics, about music, about urban design, about architecture, about so many things that clearly have meaning and affect people's lives in real ways. But when I watch two teams of people I don't personally know kick a ball around... I simply couldn't care less. Absolutely nothing whatsoever hinges on it. There's no meaning in it. And to this day, asking all my sports-obsessed friends why they like it so much, I've never gotten an answer I can actually understand or identify with. (The Onion T-shirt "the sports team from my area is superior to the sports team from your area" pretty much sums up the extent to which I understand it.) And BTW, my code acts unpredictably often enough already, without my trying to make it so ;)
- glaugh 14y ago
  Fwiw, the joy I get from watching sports is sort of similar to the joy I get from music (I love both). They're both fine to do alone, but in significant part they're excuses to get together with people and feel together. Sort of similarly, if you buy the thesis of The Mating Mind, a book about the role of sexual selection in human evolution, then to some extent we're just sort of programmed (to differing degrees?) to find music and sports engaging because they're good indicators of the fitness of their participants.
- cobrausn 14y ago
  You imply architecture and music have meaning and affect people's lives in real ways, yet sports do not. Do I really have to point out what's wrong with this statement? Not to mention it sounds incredibly pretentious. I say this as someone who doesn't really follow sports (maybe in the playoffs or post-season), but can recognize it's impact on culture.
  - lmm 14y ago
    Music and architecture bring joy to people who like them. Even in musical competitions, most of the audience enjoys most of the performance. Sports seems to be zero-sum; people don't appreciate a good game, they appreciate one arbitrarily-labelled team beating another. (Interestingly I'm far more able to appreciate professional wrestling, since (at least some of) the fandom for that is more interested in seeing a good performance than which side wins (and indeed often it's the "loser" who has the most important and hardest job))
dusing 14y ago
There is a great business opportunity in sports. I started a digital sports marketing company 6 years ago and we've had great success with this niche. The marketing side of teams can be real progressive, we've built 4 SAAS apps that and have worked with over 150 teams around the country. I'd say the best part is although they compete on the field, they don't consider each other competitors, so they exchange best practices constantly. Meaning if you do something good for one team it will get out quickly. We have hundreds of brand advocates in the space. Now when we launch a new product we can go from 0 to 40 sales and 1/2 mil rev in 6 months. And as it pertains to the story. Only 30% of our staff is into sports and has a daily knowledge of players and league issues. In fact I don't follow any sport or watch ESPN, I just enjoy going to games in person. I think our companies objectiveness has helped is greatly. Http://row27.com if you are curious. Our "apps" are http://fanmaker.com http://fanmaker.com and our news network is http://sportsbusinessnow.com http://sportsbusinessnow.com
vog 14y ago
When I read the headline I thought this will be about why geeks should do sports. And I'd fully agree with that. However, it appears that this article is just about watching sports. What a disappointment.
brnstz 14y ago
I don't "get" sports, in that I'm incapable of forming the emotional attachment to a team that seems so prevalent. (And as I type that, I wonder, maybe I'm saying more about myself than I am about sports . . ) I don't get it. If you grew up in Queens, you're a Mets fan. If you grew up in Philly, you're a Phillies fan. From my perspective, these people are exactly the same, except they are wearing different colors. Yet they are supposed to hate each other, and spend a large amount of time rationalizing their hate. There are hours upon hours of sports talk (gossip) radio on every day in every major city. I've tried. There is a special place in my heart for the Baltimore Orioles. As a kid, I liked Cal Ripken because he had consistent stats (talk about nerdy), and later I lived in Baltimore. I'm trying to like the Brooklyn Nets, because their stadium is a few subway stops from me. But I'm always on the metaphorical sidelines when it comes to fandom. The suspense can be fun, but at the end of the day, it's just a game to me. One perfect example: A few years ago, the Philadelphia Eagles hired a quarterback who spent time in jail for abusing dogs (Michael Vick). Despite having grown up in Philadelphia, I immediately ceased rooting for that team. It was the easiest decision I ever made. Meanwhile, my Philadelphia friends agonized over this turn of events and eventually rationalized they could still root for the team, so long as Michael Vick made amends via charity/volunteering. The attachment is strong. I just don't get it. Sports teams are the most powerful brands in the world. Maybe cigarette brands are a close second.
- fratis 14y ago
  I love sports for precisely the reason you don't. Generally speaking, I'm militantly rational. My rational brain is engaged in perpetual combat with my powerful Italian-American emotions, and I feel as though even if I win most of the battles, the war will never end. Except in sports. I love my Mets, Devils, and Giants (screw basketball) with the heat of a thousand stars. My rational brain recognizes the utter absurdity of it, but I simply don't care. It's fun almost because it doesn't make any sense. In a way, being an avid, emotionally invested fan of something so insignificant is practice for the very real emotional ups and downs inevitably experienced in 'real' life. Sports instruct us both in how to react to traumatizing events (in a safe, controlled environment) and in how to feel, how to attach ourselves emotionally to something.
lazerwalker 14y ago
> Sports are the exact opposite, they are almost completely unpredictable. If code was almost completely predictable, we wouldn't spend so much darn time squashing bugs. If users were predictable, we wouldn't need to spend time prototyping or A/B testing or anything like that, we'd just build exactly what our users wanted from the start. If sports were almost completely unpredictable, sabermetrics wouldn't be as large and a profitable field as it is, and we wouldn't have statisticians working in other fields (such as everyone's favorite pundit Nate Silver) who got their start modeling sports. I totally appreciate the other arguments he's making about why the sports industry presents a potentially lucrative one right now, but the point about unpredictability seems like a nonsequitor. I'd like to think he's trying to make an interesting and meaningful point with it, but it's not coming through clearly at all.
jinushaun 14y ago
Sports doesn't need any extra help. They're doing just fine. There are enough computer geeks out there that also love sports to keep the industry up-to-date in tech. SV doesn't need to pivot to the NFL.
cbs 14y ago
This isn't a justification of why geeks should be into sports, it's why people looking for a new market should consider that domain. That's fine and all but a bit misleading. I follow a few sports, the one my brother is on a team for I follow quite closely and know unnecessarily deeply. It's not like there aren't techies that like sports, or work inside of them already to bring the goods. There are pockets that lack the latest and greatest tech, but thats true of every industry and doesn't make sports some untapped gold mine. They are actively seeking tech where it will help them, and on top of that just through osmosis from coverage, stadium presentation and post game tape review teams soak up even more tech. If you're looking for an industry that could uniquely benefit from an infusion of tech, it's not sports. The sabermetrics story is a big story because the hostility to it it was an unusual case. It was also a very narrow case that the application of that particular bit of math was such a game-changing development. Oh and that thing about sports as a way of thinking about software is not only a stretch, my experience makes it sound like pablum.
- kevinpet 14y ago
  I was also turned off by the use of "geeks" when he really means "hustlers looking to make a buck". Maybe they overlap, and there's especially a lot of overlap on HN, but a market opportunity is not uniquely appealing to geeks.
zdw 14y ago
Relevant joke image: http://i.imgur.com/Mz08u.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Mz08u.jpg Forcing people to care about domain specific knowledge that is relatively useless outside of social ingratiation seems like a waste of time. That said, if you're into it it very well may be the fertile ground for innovation the OP suggests.
ommunist 14y ago
The title reminds me the famous Winston Churchill's attitude to sports. Once asked how he is keeping terrific mental and physical prowess in his age, he answered "Absolutely no sports."
njharman 14y ago
> UNPREDICTABLE First most (interesting) code deals with exterior inputs. Typically "user" inputs. Which means software engineering is far from as predictable as CS 101 might make you believe. Second, sports (at least at the game level, and to some extent the player performance level) are highly predictable. If they were not book making and sports betting would not work. I kind of stopped reading at that point. But, it sounded like actually theme was "care about the sports industry as it is a market" which is very much different than care about sports.
- csense 14y ago
  > If they were not book making and sports betting would not work. Why not? Taking parimutuel wagers [1] is guaranteed [2] to make money. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parimutuel_betting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parimutuel_betting [2] In most US jurisdictions, the organizer taking a percentage of the pot is either illegal, or requires the organizer to pay millions for a gaming license. Of course, you also have costs and taxes, like any other business. Mathematically the pool is guaranteed to make money as long as there's at least one paying customer; whether the business makes money is another question. (Another path would be to operate without approval -- illegal gambling is one of the most common forms of organized crime. It obviously has its own set of challenges, including the possibility of jail time and physical danger from competitors and customers. On the whole, it's not a market you should consider entering if you value your freedom and your life.)

42 points by shakes 14y ago

xpose2000 14y ago

As someone who runs a bootstrapped sports company (focus on american sports), I would like to add that it's very seasonal and unpredictable (in a bad way). You never know when a lockout might occur to hurt your business. In fact, there have been 3 lockouts in the past 4 years. NHL is STILL locked out from Oct, with half their season gone and no deal in sight. There are seasonal changes that impact your business. Fall/Winter are wonderful since the NBA, NFL, and NHL are playing. NFL especially dominates in terms of eyeballs. You can combine all other sports and it still won't equal NFL's popularity and how it drives user interest. Once the NFL season ends, so does your revenue and/or traffic. In the summer, you basically just have baseball and limp through wishing September would come quicker.

patrickk 14y ago
> You can combine all other sports and it still won't equal NFL's popularity and how it drives user interest. Cough soccer cough.
- xpose2000 14y ago
  This is true, though I am speaking about USA sports.
dusing 14y ago
Agreed, we do 90% of our revenue in the 3rd and 4th quarter, and the NHL lockout was a huge hit to our growth trajectory this year.

gearoidoc 14y ago

The amount of money being spent in the professional arena of a sport nor the attitude of an over-zealous parent who you've never met should not hold people back from enjoying sports. Those who dismiss sports as being "for jocks" are not better than those who consider computers "for nerds".

csense 14y ago
> Those who dismiss sports as being "for jocks" are not better than those who consider computers "for nerds". Sports are irrelevant to living in the modern world; we can leave them to the jocks. Computers are not; knowing how to use a cell phone or the Internet helps enormously with many inevitable tasks of daily life. The fact that cheap computers became possible a few decades ago means our lifestyles are quite different from before that time. The fact that the Red team beat the Blue team in the Capture the Flag Series Bowl Cup a few decades ago is largely irrelevant to most people -- even to most sports fans.
- gearoidoc 14y ago
  > Sports are irrelevant to living in the modern world So am I not living in the modern world? Playing (and following) sports helps improve communication, discipline, teamwork and leadership without mentioning the obvious health benefits. Oh and guess what? A decent sports knowledge helps enormously with connecting with your fellow man, something I get the feeling you may have trouble with.

illumin8 14y ago

The argument seems to mainly be: Sports are unpredictable, code is always predictable, so try to make your apps have the excitement of unpredictable experiences. Also, there is a lot of money in sports. No thanks. I believe designers should strive for predictable experiences when it comes to product design. Unpredictability is the #1 reason why I get those evening phone calls from my 84 year old father-in-law who just saw a new message on his computer and doesn't know what to do... Regarding the money aspect: Those of us that don't really like sports think it is pretty appalling that so much money is spent on mindless entertainment. In so many Texas towns young boys are being told they will never be men unless they play full contact football and sustain debilitating head injuries at an extremely young age. They spend their entire school life being forced by their parents to try and attain some unattainable dream of being a professional athlete, and being deprived of a good education and a healthy life. Is this not a shame that our society places so much value on sports that we would destroy our kids lives to try and live our dreams through them? I choose not to contribute my money and energy to sports because there are many other things in this world that are much more deserving of my time.

espadagroup 14y ago
It's fine if you don't like sports, though I think you're giving sports a pretty bad rep. Sure there maybe a few crazy Texas high schools but overall sports are doing a whole lot more good (team collaboration, weight loss, fun, etc..) for society and the people who play them then bad. Physical forms of entertainment have and will always be around, it's human nature; better football than the arena.
gmichnikov 14y ago
You appear to have reduced "sports" to "American football". There are a lot of sports out there. Most of them do not come with risks of debilitating head injuries. Participating in sports is a great way for people to stay healthy, build confidence, be part of a team, etc. By and large they are a great thing for kids. I can't imagine how one would find data for this, but I imagine that the percentage of sports-loving parents who push their kids to be pro athletes is about zero.

Swizec 14y ago

> Sports are the exact opposite, they are almost completely unpredictable. No they are not. Sports are very predictable, but they are a stochastic process. You simply have to use a different way to reason about them. A lot or programmers deal with stochastic processes as well and we have plenty of tools at our disposal that make us able of reasoning about even the most random seeming stuff. Case in point: software that predicts how many cash registers a store might need to never have a single person waiting for more than 3 minutes, while keeping costs at an optimum. Good movie on this subject: Moneyball

Too 14y ago
Another vote for moneyball. Very good movie on the subject
mcos 14y ago
If you've seen the movie, I'd highly recommend "Moneyball" the book too. It goes into a lot of great detail that the movie doesn't deal with.

untog 14y ago

There will, I'm sure, be a lot of replies about how "I don't care about sports and you can't make me"- which is fair enough. This stuff is very subjective. But the point made about disruption in sports is interesting- I've seen a ton of developers working on pick-up game organisers, and a few fantasy leagues, but nothing more significant than that. The locked-in nature of sports licensing makes it very difficult to 'disrupt' any sports franchise without the consent of the owner- I suspect that will continue to be a barrier.

addlepate 14y ago

I should like sports because it could make me money. No thanks.

mbesto 14y ago

Just because a team is valued at $2.2bil doesn't mean there is $2.2bil worth of money floating around to be made. Yes, there is money to be made in Sports & Entertainment, but that approach is misguided. To give you a better idea. EPL clubs brought in £2.3bil last year[1] but lost £361m. These losses are largely due to wages: "In total, £1.5bn was spent on wages by the 20 clubs in 2010-11 (including Birmingham's £38m wage bill in 2009‑10). That accounted for 69% of the clubs' total income, slightly up from the 68% of income the clubs spent in 2009‑10 on wages." So if you can somehow improve efficiencies for the other 31% of the costs then you could probably make some decent money. Sports is highly irrational when it comes to business. [1]- http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/23/premier-league-losses-2010-11-profits http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/23/premier-leagu...

lmm 14y ago
Why not go for the big fish: find clubs a way to cut their wage bill while maintaining performance. There's plenty of money in that.
- mbesto 14y ago
  Yup! Especially in the EPL where they are now in talks of adopting UEFA's financial fair play model.[1] Without knowing enough about the intricacies of the inefficiencies of club management and at least 70% of their costs coming from wages (which can't be reduced by technology), I'm not sure where things can be improved. [1]- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/9542469/Premier-League-could-adopt-Uefas-financial-fair-play-regulations-as-early-as-the-2013-14-season.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premi...
patrickk 14y ago
I believe it was in the book "Inverting the Pyramid" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-Tactics/dp/1409102041 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Football-T...) that I read the phrase "Financially, you can think of football as a transfer of wealth from the fans to players". Players are the only ones who make any real money from football (maybe Sky Sports does too, but they have to bid billions for secure the rights and then spend years recouping the cost). The author goes on to state that the highest earning football club (think it was either Real Madrid or Manchester United) made only a tiny fraction of revenue of the lowest ranked, anonymous company on the Fortune 500 index. Football is not played for financial reasons.

mynegation 14y ago

When I read the title I was totally prepared to read why geeks should exercise more. At least two and may be even all of the arguments in the OP work even better if you do sports yourself, as you see the world of sports from inside. I am not against pro sports as an entertainment, but doing it yourself, as opposed to sitting on the couch or stadium seat is so much better for your health.

redwood 14y ago

While I am not a big sports fan (except for one particular sport) I want to chime on on what I thought this article would be about, but wasn't: Sports are valuable to know about, because so many peers, especially in other functions, value them. It's not that you need to even devote time to sports, or to know anything. It's that posturing that shows you respect others' interests in sports, is valuable. In fact this applies to any set of interets, however mainstream, nerdy, alpha, or etc: whether sports, videogames, brewing, or bee-keeping. Always show interest and genuine respect for others' interests, instead of dismissing them. I'll never forget a guy in high school who overheard me talking about a computer game... he said "Oh... you're still playing games? I stopped in middle school!". I've thought of him as an ass hole ever since. And it wasn't that he didn't play games (or enjoy sports, or etc): it was that he was arrogant and dismissive of my interest and put me down indirectly as a result. Never be arrogant and dismissive of others' interests: show appreciation and respect... sometimes it helps to just genuinely look for what others enjoy. If you can't find it: pretend! You'll find enormous benefit in terms of how much others like you as a result: and this is important in any group. Especially for something as massively popular as sports, don't fall into the trap.

rayiner 14y ago
Yes! Especially if you're the enterprising type, being able to relate to people's interest, and sports is a common interest, is an extremely useful life skill. I'm not a huge sports fan, but I've picked a lot up by osmosis since I did ACC UG/Big 10 grad school. I can't tell you how often an interviewer has lightened up and become more engaged after I brought up his alma mater's football team. It's not just for show. It's social lubricant. It allows you to feel each other out while talking about a relatively neutral topic that neither of you have a big investment into, to cut down the tension involved in talking about the business discussion at hand.
- redwood 14y ago
  Spot on: in fact you bring up another great point... local knowledge is a wonderful thing to share and when someone feels you know something about their special place, they're always impressed! The film Lincoln did a good job of showing old Abe doing that quite a bit in order to gain favor :)

lectrick 14y ago

It's definitely a market opportunity (see: the movie Moneyball), but I wouldn't say programmers should just go into sports unless they actually love sports (and programming). While this type of person is rare, they exist, and it's their market to own, basically.

LiveFanChat 14y ago

Our whole team loves sports :) but i figure that makes sense http://www.LiveFanChat.com/sites http://www.LiveFanChat.com/sites

mmcconnell1618 14y ago

I'm not a big sports fan. Neither is my Dad and I'm sure that's part of the reason why I never 'got' sports. For the longest time I wondered why so many apparently sane people were addicted to a specific sports team or would spend tons of money to own a jersey with their favorite player's number. Then I learned about mirror neurons. The human brain has been shown through functional MRI studies to 'mirror' emotions that are watched. Speculation suggests this evolved as a way for one person to empathize with another's situation. How does this relate to sports? It turns out that if you're watching someone hit a home run at the crucial moment in the game your brain gives you a little 'hit' of the same emotion that actual player is feeling. In other words, people who love watching sports have a physical reaction that makes them feel the highs and lows of the players. I no longer assume that people addicted to sports are just in it for the beer.

crazygringo 14y ago

I've tried to get into watching sports for years, because it's something extra to have in common with people, and I really wish I could share it. But now, at 32, having tried probably about 10 times, I realize I just can't. I just don't care. I care about politics, about music, about urban design, about architecture, about so many things that clearly have meaning and affect people's lives in real ways. But when I watch two teams of people I don't personally know kick a ball around... I simply couldn't care less. Absolutely nothing whatsoever hinges on it. There's no meaning in it. And to this day, asking all my sports-obsessed friends why they like it so much, I've never gotten an answer I can actually understand or identify with. (The Onion T-shirt "the sports team from my area is superior to the sports team from your area" pretty much sums up the extent to which I understand it.) And BTW, my code acts unpredictably often enough already, without my trying to make it so ;)

glaugh 14y ago
Fwiw, the joy I get from watching sports is sort of similar to the joy I get from music (I love both). They're both fine to do alone, but in significant part they're excuses to get together with people and feel together. Sort of similarly, if you buy the thesis of The Mating Mind, a book about the role of sexual selection in human evolution, then to some extent we're just sort of programmed (to differing degrees?) to find music and sports engaging because they're good indicators of the fitness of their participants.
cobrausn 14y ago
You imply architecture and music have meaning and affect people's lives in real ways, yet sports do not. Do I really have to point out what's wrong with this statement? Not to mention it sounds incredibly pretentious. I say this as someone who doesn't really follow sports (maybe in the playoffs or post-season), but can recognize it's impact on culture.
- lmm 14y ago
  Music and architecture bring joy to people who like them. Even in musical competitions, most of the audience enjoys most of the performance. Sports seems to be zero-sum; people don't appreciate a good game, they appreciate one arbitrarily-labelled team beating another. (Interestingly I'm far more able to appreciate professional wrestling, since (at least some of) the fandom for that is more interested in seeing a good performance than which side wins (and indeed often it's the "loser" who has the most important and hardest job))

dusing 14y ago

There is a great business opportunity in sports. I started a digital sports marketing company 6 years ago and we've had great success with this niche. The marketing side of teams can be real progressive, we've built 4 SAAS apps that and have worked with over 150 teams around the country. I'd say the best part is although they compete on the field, they don't consider each other competitors, so they exchange best practices constantly. Meaning if you do something good for one team it will get out quickly. We have hundreds of brand advocates in the space. Now when we launch a new product we can go from 0 to 40 sales and 1/2 mil rev in 6 months. And as it pertains to the story. Only 30% of our staff is into sports and has a daily knowledge of players and league issues. In fact I don't follow any sport or watch ESPN, I just enjoy going to games in person. I think our companies objectiveness has helped is greatly. Http://row27.com if you are curious. Our "apps" are http://fanmaker.com http://fanmaker.com and our news network is http://sportsbusinessnow.com http://sportsbusinessnow.com

vog 14y ago

When I read the headline I thought this will be about why geeks should do sports. And I'd fully agree with that. However, it appears that this article is just about watching sports. What a disappointment.

brnstz 14y ago

I don't "get" sports, in that I'm incapable of forming the emotional attachment to a team that seems so prevalent. (And as I type that, I wonder, maybe I'm saying more about myself than I am about sports . . ) I don't get it. If you grew up in Queens, you're a Mets fan. If you grew up in Philly, you're a Phillies fan. From my perspective, these people are exactly the same, except they are wearing different colors. Yet they are supposed to hate each other, and spend a large amount of time rationalizing their hate. There are hours upon hours of sports talk (gossip) radio on every day in every major city. I've tried. There is a special place in my heart for the Baltimore Orioles. As a kid, I liked Cal Ripken because he had consistent stats (talk about nerdy), and later I lived in Baltimore. I'm trying to like the Brooklyn Nets, because their stadium is a few subway stops from me. But I'm always on the metaphorical sidelines when it comes to fandom. The suspense can be fun, but at the end of the day, it's just a game to me. One perfect example: A few years ago, the Philadelphia Eagles hired a quarterback who spent time in jail for abusing dogs (Michael Vick). Despite having grown up in Philadelphia, I immediately ceased rooting for that team. It was the easiest decision I ever made. Meanwhile, my Philadelphia friends agonized over this turn of events and eventually rationalized they could still root for the team, so long as Michael Vick made amends via charity/volunteering. The attachment is strong. I just don't get it. Sports teams are the most powerful brands in the world. Maybe cigarette brands are a close second.

fratis 14y ago
I love sports for precisely the reason you don't. Generally speaking, I'm militantly rational. My rational brain is engaged in perpetual combat with my powerful Italian-American emotions, and I feel as though even if I win most of the battles, the war will never end. Except in sports. I love my Mets, Devils, and Giants (screw basketball) with the heat of a thousand stars. My rational brain recognizes the utter absurdity of it, but I simply don't care. It's fun almost because it doesn't make any sense. In a way, being an avid, emotionally invested fan of something so insignificant is practice for the very real emotional ups and downs inevitably experienced in 'real' life. Sports instruct us both in how to react to traumatizing events (in a safe, controlled environment) and in how to feel, how to attach ourselves emotionally to something.

lazerwalker 14y ago

> Sports are the exact opposite, they are almost completely unpredictable. If code was almost completely predictable, we wouldn't spend so much darn time squashing bugs. If users were predictable, we wouldn't need to spend time prototyping or A/B testing or anything like that, we'd just build exactly what our users wanted from the start. If sports were almost completely unpredictable, sabermetrics wouldn't be as large and a profitable field as it is, and we wouldn't have statisticians working in other fields (such as everyone's favorite pundit Nate Silver) who got their start modeling sports. I totally appreciate the other arguments he's making about why the sports industry presents a potentially lucrative one right now, but the point about unpredictability seems like a nonsequitor. I'd like to think he's trying to make an interesting and meaningful point with it, but it's not coming through clearly at all.

jinushaun 14y ago

Sports doesn't need any extra help. They're doing just fine. There are enough computer geeks out there that also love sports to keep the industry up-to-date in tech. SV doesn't need to pivot to the NFL.

cbs 14y ago

This isn't a justification of why geeks should be into sports, it's why people looking for a new market should consider that domain. That's fine and all but a bit misleading. I follow a few sports, the one my brother is on a team for I follow quite closely and know unnecessarily deeply. It's not like there aren't techies that like sports, or work inside of them already to bring the goods. There are pockets that lack the latest and greatest tech, but thats true of every industry and doesn't make sports some untapped gold mine. They are actively seeking tech where it will help them, and on top of that just through osmosis from coverage, stadium presentation and post game tape review teams soak up even more tech. If you're looking for an industry that could uniquely benefit from an infusion of tech, it's not sports. The sabermetrics story is a big story because the hostility to it it was an unusual case. It was also a very narrow case that the application of that particular bit of math was such a game-changing development. Oh and that thing about sports as a way of thinking about software is not only a stretch, my experience makes it sound like pablum.

kevinpet 14y ago
I was also turned off by the use of "geeks" when he really means "hustlers looking to make a buck". Maybe they overlap, and there's especially a lot of overlap on HN, but a market opportunity is not uniquely appealing to geeks.

zdw 14y ago

Relevant joke image: http://i.imgur.com/Mz08u.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Mz08u.jpg Forcing people to care about domain specific knowledge that is relatively useless outside of social ingratiation seems like a waste of time. That said, if you're into it it very well may be the fertile ground for innovation the OP suggests.

ommunist 14y ago

The title reminds me the famous Winston Churchill's attitude to sports. Once asked how he is keeping terrific mental and physical prowess in his age, he answered "Absolutely no sports."

njharman 14y ago

> UNPREDICTABLE First most (interesting) code deals with exterior inputs. Typically "user" inputs. Which means software engineering is far from as predictable as CS 101 might make you believe. Second, sports (at least at the game level, and to some extent the player performance level) are highly predictable. If they were not book making and sports betting would not work. I kind of stopped reading at that point. But, it sounded like actually theme was "care about the sports industry as it is a market" which is very much different than care about sports.

csense 14y ago
> If they were not book making and sports betting would not work. Why not? Taking parimutuel wagers [1] is guaranteed [2] to make money. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parimutuel_betting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parimutuel_betting [2] In most US jurisdictions, the organizer taking a percentage of the pot is either illegal, or requires the organizer to pay millions for a gaming license. Of course, you also have costs and taxes, like any other business. Mathematically the pool is guaranteed to make money as long as there's at least one paying customer; whether the business makes money is another question. (Another path would be to operate without approval -- illegal gambling is one of the most common forms of organized crime. It obviously has its own set of challenges, including the possibility of jail time and physical danger from competitors and customers. On the whole, it's not a market you should consider entering if you value your freedom and your life.)