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Ugh, graffiti is really a crime against the built environment: https://offloadmedia.feverup.com/saopaulosecreto.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/08142152/1280px-T

by rayiner 3mo ago

Ugh, graffiti is really a crime against the built environment: https://offloadmedia.feverup.com/saopaulosecreto.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/08142152/1280px-Tiquatira26.jpg https://offloadmedia.feverup.com/saopaulosecreto.com/wp-cont.... I've never been, but I remember they had a big push some years ago to ban outdoor advertising to reduce "visual pollution." Sao Paulo looks so clean and beautiful from Google Street View--it makes the ugliness of the graffiti really stand out. I can't comprehend the nasty mind that decides to pollute other people's environment like that.

jibcage 3mo ago
My hot take: as long as the artists (or vandals I suppose, depending on your point of view) are talented, I don’t actually mind. It adds a “lived-in” character to the space which I quite like. Defacing small business owners’ property is obviously a dick move but if you’re at an abandoned warehouse, skatepark, or waterfront, I say go nuts.
- rayiner 3mo ago
  Defacing public property is worse. It's toxic individualism and self-expression. If people wanted to put up a mural, they'd collectively vote to do so. In a proper society, graffiti artists would face public punishment from the collective.
  - jibcage 3mo ago
    Is it really toxic individualism if there’s a (mostly healthy) subculture dedicated to it, though? In a “proper society” we could pass around the talking stick to reach consensus on a whole grab bag of things. I’m not a tagger myself, but I do think there is something poetically democratic about people participating in the public forum in this way. At least, beyond the four-letter words and flying dicks, anyways.
    - rayiner 3mo ago
      Yes, because the subculture doesn't represent the majority. It's the opposite of "democratic"--it's a small group of people imposing their aesthetic on what you acknowledge is a "public form"--without the consent of the public. "Democracy" isn't about individuals or small groups making their voices heard. That might be a necessary factor, but it's not the purpose. Democracy is about the majority having the right to create the kind of society they want to live in. Maybe people in Sao Paulo like the graffiti (or maybe not, since the ban on other types of visual pollution seems popular). But it's the majority's decision to make.
mx7zysuj4xew 3mo ago
It's a skatepark, skateparks have graffiti, it's art live with it
- rayiner 3mo ago
  No, entropy is a choice: https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/sport-and-fitness/hlna-skygarden https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/sport-and-fitness/hlna-skygard...
  - js2 2mo ago
    That sea of undecorated concrete sure is ugly. I'll take the painted skate park in Sao Paulo. Different strokes...
- tiagod 3mo ago
  Right? This feels like complaining about people kneeling at the church.
embedding-shape 3mo ago
Eh, if anything, "human built drab concrete environments" is exactly what graffiti should cover and be used to fight, add a bit of color to life. Don't like it? Don't make it so boring and dull in the first place. People who graffiti trees, stones and other natural elements are fucking cunts though, ruining nature's art with their shitty tags, that's really horrible behavior.
- rayiner 3mo ago
  Lots of people like the clean, subdued aesthetic. If they wanted "color" that's what they'd build. It's not for taggers to decide how much or little "color" a city should have.
  - embedding-shape 2mo ago
    > Lots of people like the clean, subdued aesthetic And lots of people feels like it's a oppressive aesthetic. Not sure I've ever heard the concrete jungles of a city called "clean and subdued aesthetic", so cheers for this new perspective! The very same counter-culture that likes to color things, is also partly about breaking the rules, so here we are :)
    - rayiner 2mo ago
      > And lots of people feels like it's an oppressive aesthetic. And when they’re in charge they can decorate however they want. They don’t get to impose their aesthetic preferences on public spaces without consent. > Not sure I've ever heard the concrete jungles of a city called "clean and subdued aesthetic" “Clean City” is literally the name of São Paulo’s anti-visual pollution law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cidade_Limpa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cidade_Limpa > The very same counter-culture that likes to color things, is also partly about breaking the rules Of course they hate the rules. The rules are there to protect normal people from them.
      - embedding-shape 2mo ago
        Fitting page :) > The implementation of the law was controversial. The advertising industry took it worst. Many of the graffiti images which had brought the city an international reputation for artistic innovation were destroyed and others badly damaged, including the officially approved 680-meter-long mural painted by the grafiteiros Os Gêmeos, Nunca and Nina along the 23 de Maio expressway. At the same time the artists' work was being celebrated in the Street Art exhibition at Tate Modern Gallery in London, with large-scale works by Os Gêmeos and Nunca decorating the Tate Modern's external walls. This international recognition of the significance of the artists' work led to a re-evaluation in São Paulo of the importance of street art and the impact of the law. Following a public debate on the subject of what constituted art a registry of street art in São Paulo meriting protection was established by the city. I'm glad to hear they managed to find a good balance between forbidding advertisement (which the intent of the law seems to be about, not more general "anti-visual pollution") and keeping celebrated artist's artwork around instead of destroying it.
whou 3mo ago
As a paulista, I actually like street graffiti in big cities, a lot of times I don't think they look ugly at all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I think that skate park is even better with street graffiti. If I see a skate park like that one with no graffiti or any art whatsoever It'll just look bland, boring and ugly. The graffiti gives it beauty and personality, especially since it is very tied to skate culture. I have the same feeling when seeing a dense metropolitan São Paulo center with tall buildings. It might not be pretty in every building, especially residential areas, for sure, but none at all is really ugly and bland. For my paulista heart, a lot of graffiti is what gives the city (or rather, state) its charm.
gverrilla 3mo ago
There's a movie that might provide you some understanding. Pixo [0]. 0: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3135326/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3135326/
- rayiner 2mo ago
  Residents don’t seem to like it: https://toxicnews.org/2017/05/16/translations-of-sao-paulos-visual-pollution/ https://toxicnews.org/2017/05/16/translations-of-sao-paulos-... “Pixo, present in most buildings found in deprived areas of São Paulo, was considered to be a major form of visual pollution by the participants: ‘visual pollution is a visual intervention that shouldn’t be there…like pixo, graffiti not so much, but pixo I think it is horrible.’” People deserve to be free from such ugliness in their environment.
gamblor956 2mo ago
If you understand skate culture, you would know that graffiti is not only a valued part of a skate park that gives each park its own unique identity, but is also a valuable tool for identifying trick locations, features, and edges during runs. If you look closely at the photo, you'll notice that each feature, and each salient edge within a feature, has very different graffiti on it.

by rayiner 3mo ago

jibcage 3mo ago

My hot take: as long as the artists (or vandals I suppose, depending on your point of view) are talented, I don’t actually mind. It adds a “lived-in” character to the space which I quite like. Defacing small business owners’ property is obviously a dick move but if you’re at an abandoned warehouse, skatepark, or waterfront, I say go nuts.

rayiner 3mo ago
Defacing public property is worse. It's toxic individualism and self-expression. If people wanted to put up a mural, they'd collectively vote to do so. In a proper society, graffiti artists would face public punishment from the collective.
- jibcage 3mo ago
  Is it really toxic individualism if there’s a (mostly healthy) subculture dedicated to it, though? In a “proper society” we could pass around the talking stick to reach consensus on a whole grab bag of things. I’m not a tagger myself, but I do think there is something poetically democratic about people participating in the public forum in this way. At least, beyond the four-letter words and flying dicks, anyways.
  - rayiner 3mo ago
    Yes, because the subculture doesn't represent the majority. It's the opposite of "democratic"--it's a small group of people imposing their aesthetic on what you acknowledge is a "public form"--without the consent of the public. "Democracy" isn't about individuals or small groups making their voices heard. That might be a necessary factor, but it's not the purpose. Democracy is about the majority having the right to create the kind of society they want to live in. Maybe people in Sao Paulo like the graffiti (or maybe not, since the ban on other types of visual pollution seems popular). But it's the majority's decision to make.

mx7zysuj4xew 3mo ago

It's a skatepark, skateparks have graffiti, it's art live with it

rayiner 3mo ago
No, entropy is a choice: https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/sport-and-fitness/hlna-skygarden https://www.timeout.com/tokyo/sport-and-fitness/hlna-skygard...
- js2 2mo ago
  That sea of undecorated concrete sure is ugly. I'll take the painted skate park in Sao Paulo. Different strokes...
tiagod 3mo ago
Right? This feels like complaining about people kneeling at the church.

embedding-shape 3mo ago

Eh, if anything, "human built drab concrete environments" is exactly what graffiti should cover and be used to fight, add a bit of color to life. Don't like it? Don't make it so boring and dull in the first place. People who graffiti trees, stones and other natural elements are fucking cunts though, ruining nature's art with their shitty tags, that's really horrible behavior.

rayiner 3mo ago
Lots of people like the clean, subdued aesthetic. If they wanted "color" that's what they'd build. It's not for taggers to decide how much or little "color" a city should have.
- embedding-shape 2mo ago
  > Lots of people like the clean, subdued aesthetic And lots of people feels like it's a oppressive aesthetic. Not sure I've ever heard the concrete jungles of a city called "clean and subdued aesthetic", so cheers for this new perspective! The very same counter-culture that likes to color things, is also partly about breaking the rules, so here we are :)
  - rayiner 2mo ago
    > And lots of people feels like it's an oppressive aesthetic. And when they’re in charge they can decorate however they want. They don’t get to impose their aesthetic preferences on public spaces without consent. > Not sure I've ever heard the concrete jungles of a city called "clean and subdued aesthetic" “Clean City” is literally the name of São Paulo’s anti-visual pollution law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cidade_Limpa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cidade_Limpa > The very same counter-culture that likes to color things, is also partly about breaking the rules Of course they hate the rules. The rules are there to protect normal people from them.
    - embedding-shape 2mo ago
      Fitting page :) > The implementation of the law was controversial. The advertising industry took it worst. Many of the graffiti images which had brought the city an international reputation for artistic innovation were destroyed and others badly damaged, including the officially approved 680-meter-long mural painted by the grafiteiros Os Gêmeos, Nunca and Nina along the 23 de Maio expressway. At the same time the artists' work was being celebrated in the Street Art exhibition at Tate Modern Gallery in London, with large-scale works by Os Gêmeos and Nunca decorating the Tate Modern's external walls. This international recognition of the significance of the artists' work led to a re-evaluation in São Paulo of the importance of street art and the impact of the law. Following a public debate on the subject of what constituted art a registry of street art in São Paulo meriting protection was established by the city. I'm glad to hear they managed to find a good balance between forbidding advertisement (which the intent of the law seems to be about, not more general "anti-visual pollution") and keeping celebrated artist's artwork around instead of destroying it.

whou 3mo ago

As a paulista, I actually like street graffiti in big cities, a lot of times I don't think they look ugly at all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I think that skate park is even better with street graffiti. If I see a skate park like that one with no graffiti or any art whatsoever It'll just look bland, boring and ugly. The graffiti gives it beauty and personality, especially since it is very tied to skate culture. I have the same feeling when seeing a dense metropolitan São Paulo center with tall buildings. It might not be pretty in every building, especially residential areas, for sure, but none at all is really ugly and bland. For my paulista heart, a lot of graffiti is what gives the city (or rather, state) its charm.

gverrilla 3mo ago

There's a movie that might provide you some understanding. Pixo [0]. 0: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3135326/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3135326/

rayiner 2mo ago
Residents don’t seem to like it: https://toxicnews.org/2017/05/16/translations-of-sao-paulos-visual-pollution/ https://toxicnews.org/2017/05/16/translations-of-sao-paulos-... “Pixo, present in most buildings found in deprived areas of São Paulo, was considered to be a major form of visual pollution by the participants: ‘visual pollution is a visual intervention that shouldn’t be there…like pixo, graffiti not so much, but pixo I think it is horrible.’” People deserve to be free from such ugliness in their environment.

gamblor956 2mo ago

If you understand skate culture, you would know that graffiti is not only a valued part of a skate park that gives each park its own unique identity, but is also a valuable tool for identifying trick locations, features, and edges during runs. If you look closely at the photo, you'll notice that each feature, and each salient edge within a feature, has very different graffiti on it.