6 ms·

And in the winter in the North people are just supposed to freeze?

by jtbayly 2mo ago

WillAdams 2mo ago
Supplement w/ geothermal?
- seb1204 2mo ago
  Yes, this
- perpetuallunch 2mo ago
  Geothermal works in enough areas (geographies) for it to be an entertaining talking point in niche forums like this one. But not much else. Earth is an incredibly poor heat conductor, as evidenced by the fact that you don’t have to dig very far, maybe a foot or four, and it’s a fairly constant 14 degrees C, and yet the core is molten lava (rock) and has been that way for billions of years predominantly from latent heat from the planets formation. So you have to be very careful with heat exchange, lest you exceed the ability of the earth to conduct heat through the rock surrounding the boreholes. Drilling deep boreholes is difficult as the rock becomes more like plasticine as it approaches temperatures where usefully higher temperatures occur.
  - defrost 2mo ago
    "Artificial" geothermal works well enough to store energy from sunlight months for use during colder months. Artificial in the sense of using solar energy (direct or electric) to heat mass insulated by earth and later extracting that heat to use (directly in district heating, or indirectly via heat -> electric conversion).
    - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
      Show me an example where this is being used in the real word, at scale, in a cost effective manner. It’s not even a good idea. Water has a greater capacity to store heat than rocks and dirt.
      - anenefan 2mo ago
        I'm obviously going to ignore the conditional goal posts at scale and cost effective ... burgeoning technology does not typically land with all the problems ironed out or have economy of scale. I used my searchfoo and Sage Industries lands in more of the top results [1] [2] (may require careful attention to distinguish between natural and artificial geothermal) As well as an interview [youtube] There's obviously different methods that have been employed / tried by other companies given [3] which outlines different methods of storage also includes some simple graphics ... [1] https://www.aveva.com/en/our-industrial-life/type/article/turning-abandoned-oil-wells-into-energy-storage/ https://www.aveva.com/en/our-industrial-life/type/article/tu... [2] https://new.abb.com/news/detail/123160/abb-and-sage-geosystems-unearth-geothermal-energy-opportunities https://new.abb.com/news/detail/123160/abb-and-sage-geosyste... [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSt-MiiX0Fg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSt-MiiX0Fg (Transmission 43 mins Geothermal: Turning Oil Wells Into Energy Storage - Sage Geosystems) [podcast] [3] https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/geothermal/geothermal-energy-storage https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/geothermal/geothermal-energy-sto...
      - defrost 2mo ago
        > real word, at scale, in a cost effective manner. - https://web.archive.org/web/20151208232728/http://ing.dk/artikel/verdens-stoerste-damvarmelager-indviet-i-vojens-176776 https://web.archive.org/web/20151208232728/http://ing.dk/art... from [2015 - now( ... (still operating) for one example. > Water has a greater capacity to store heat than rocks and dirt. Weirdly all three fall under the description used ( "mass" ) and yet none of the three you mentioned are molten salt or silicon which perform even better than water. If the point you're making is that you've made little effort to think this through or look to where this has been used, is being used, or at pilot plants going to longer time scales then congratulations, you've convinced me.
PowerElectronix 2mo ago
Solar would produce enough power in winter. Germany is europe's top solar energy producer and is at a latitude similar to Alaska.
- eigenspace 2mo ago
  The very very northern tip of Germany reaches almost as far north as the southernmost tip of the Alaskan panhandle, but most of Germany is more like mid-south Canada on a latitude basis. Northern Germany is much more specialized into wind power, and the south is more solar intensive (though solar is more evenly spread throughout the country than Wind, thanks to ease of installation, and the fact that it still produces tonnes of electricity in the summer). Solar should be built in Alaska, but wind and hydro is what should be actively subsidized and supported by the government. The market can take care of solar penetration in Alaska if you let it.
  - cycomanic 2mo ago
    One additional tidbit of info. While the northern coast in Germany has certainly more wind, a reason why wind falls off so strongly towards the south, are the policies of the CSU party in Bavaria, which though not quite as bad as trump has been running Anti-Wind policies and making wind installations extremely difficult to build.
- perpetuallunch 2mo ago
  At what cost? Doesn’t Germany now have some of the most costly electricity in the OECD? For a while there we kept hearing about plug in balcony solar in Germany. Electricity generation used to be a solved problem, now it’s so bad people want to connect solar on their apartment balcony. And we’re supposed to believe this is progress?
  - bryanlarsen 2mo ago
    Germany's high electricity prices are set by the cost of imported LNG.
whizzter 2mo ago
The energy mix for electricity in Sweden, Norway and Finland is mostly made up of hydro+nuclear+wind, especially wind and hydro complements each other very well since hydro is very much on-demand and can cover for most temporary wind shortfalls. Driving through my childhood area up north a few weeks back I was also surprised by the amount of solar going up, for comparison this is an area _north of_ Anchorage/Alaska with less than 3 hours of sun around Christmas, but already by late January (usually the coldest period of the year) there is over 6 hours of sun a day (so with high pressure cold peaks with less wind, the 6 hours probably eases the power bill quite a bit). An interesting fact about those solar installations was that the panels were mounted almost vertically (probably to avoid being snowed over but also useful in the winter since the sun mostly just shines from the south anyhow).
mapontosevenths 2mo ago
North Americans mostly do not use electricity for heat in the winter. Around 60% use natural gas with forced air furnaces. Something closer to 80% have the option, but 20% don't bother to use it. Some of the deep south get by with electric heat, but they aren't in places where the cold is a typically a legitimate danger to health and safety.
- ricardobayes 2mo ago
  I find something very refreshing in this, reading from Europe where we get told "gas" is the big bad, even threatening to make condensing gas boilers illegal from time to time [0], despite over 95% of homes (in the UK) being heated by this method. That said most of Europe doesn't heat or cool adequately, Spain and Portugal barely heat their homes in winter and boy it gets cold with 41F/5C nights. Then Germany/Switzerland refuse to use A/C even though the summers get to 95F/35C. Just a few days ago a friend told me he went to the doctor and the doctor passed out during examination from the heat. ps. Not sure why it's downvoted, I think people read something into my comment that I didn't want to express. [0]: https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/advice/uk-boiler-ban https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/advice/uk-boiler-ban
  - actionfromafar 2mo ago
    Europe has unlimited wind, not unlimited gas. Electrification of most things is just a matter of time. Gas for heating is wasteful. I think AC will get very popular eventually once the stragglers realize that these are not unusual one-off warm summers, but is a result of global warming.
  - nicoburns 2mo ago
    > Reading from Europe where we get told "gas" is the big bad, even threatening to make condensing gas boilers illegal from time to time Long-term this is true, and it makes sense to ban gas boilers (potentially with some exceptions): electric heat is significantly more efficient, and can run on renewable energy. But that requires a big investment in infrastructure build-out (heat pumps) which will take decades, and we definitely need to be careful that we handle the transition without screwing people over.

And in the winter in the North people are just supposed to freeze?

by jtbayly 2mo ago

And in the winter in the North people are just supposed to freeze?

WillAdams 2mo ago

Supplement w/ geothermal?

seb1204 2mo ago
Yes, this
perpetuallunch 2mo ago
Geothermal works in enough areas (geographies) for it to be an entertaining talking point in niche forums like this one. But not much else. Earth is an incredibly poor heat conductor, as evidenced by the fact that you don’t have to dig very far, maybe a foot or four, and it’s a fairly constant 14 degrees C, and yet the core is molten lava (rock) and has been that way for billions of years predominantly from latent heat from the planets formation. So you have to be very careful with heat exchange, lest you exceed the ability of the earth to conduct heat through the rock surrounding the boreholes. Drilling deep boreholes is difficult as the rock becomes more like plasticine as it approaches temperatures where usefully higher temperatures occur.
- defrost 2mo ago
  "Artificial" geothermal works well enough to store energy from sunlight months for use during colder months. Artificial in the sense of using solar energy (direct or electric) to heat mass insulated by earth and later extracting that heat to use (directly in district heating, or indirectly via heat -> electric conversion).
  - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
    Show me an example where this is being used in the real word, at scale, in a cost effective manner. It’s not even a good idea. Water has a greater capacity to store heat than rocks and dirt.
    - anenefan 2mo ago
      I'm obviously going to ignore the conditional goal posts at scale and cost effective ... burgeoning technology does not typically land with all the problems ironed out or have economy of scale. I used my searchfoo and Sage Industries lands in more of the top results [1] [2] (may require careful attention to distinguish between natural and artificial geothermal) As well as an interview [youtube] There's obviously different methods that have been employed / tried by other companies given [3] which outlines different methods of storage also includes some simple graphics ... [1] https://www.aveva.com/en/our-industrial-life/type/article/turning-abandoned-oil-wells-into-energy-storage/ https://www.aveva.com/en/our-industrial-life/type/article/tu... [2] https://new.abb.com/news/detail/123160/abb-and-sage-geosystems-unearth-geothermal-energy-opportunities https://new.abb.com/news/detail/123160/abb-and-sage-geosyste... [youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSt-MiiX0Fg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSt-MiiX0Fg (Transmission 43 mins Geothermal: Turning Oil Wells Into Energy Storage - Sage Geosystems) [podcast] [3] https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/geothermal/geothermal-energy-storage https://www.energy.gov/hgeo/geothermal/geothermal-energy-sto...
    - defrost 2mo ago
      > real word, at scale, in a cost effective manner. - https://web.archive.org/web/20151208232728/http://ing.dk/artikel/verdens-stoerste-damvarmelager-indviet-i-vojens-176776 https://web.archive.org/web/20151208232728/http://ing.dk/art... from [2015 - now( ... (still operating) for one example. > Water has a greater capacity to store heat than rocks and dirt. Weirdly all three fall under the description used ( "mass" ) and yet none of the three you mentioned are molten salt or silicon which perform even better than water. If the point you're making is that you've made little effort to think this through or look to where this has been used, is being used, or at pilot plants going to longer time scales then congratulations, you've convinced me.

PowerElectronix 2mo ago

Solar would produce enough power in winter. Germany is europe's top solar energy producer and is at a latitude similar to Alaska.

eigenspace 2mo ago
The very very northern tip of Germany reaches almost as far north as the southernmost tip of the Alaskan panhandle, but most of Germany is more like mid-south Canada on a latitude basis. Northern Germany is much more specialized into wind power, and the south is more solar intensive (though solar is more evenly spread throughout the country than Wind, thanks to ease of installation, and the fact that it still produces tonnes of electricity in the summer). Solar should be built in Alaska, but wind and hydro is what should be actively subsidized and supported by the government. The market can take care of solar penetration in Alaska if you let it.
- cycomanic 2mo ago
  One additional tidbit of info. While the northern coast in Germany has certainly more wind, a reason why wind falls off so strongly towards the south, are the policies of the CSU party in Bavaria, which though not quite as bad as trump has been running Anti-Wind policies and making wind installations extremely difficult to build.
perpetuallunch 2mo ago
At what cost? Doesn’t Germany now have some of the most costly electricity in the OECD? For a while there we kept hearing about plug in balcony solar in Germany. Electricity generation used to be a solved problem, now it’s so bad people want to connect solar on their apartment balcony. And we’re supposed to believe this is progress?
- bryanlarsen 2mo ago
  Germany's high electricity prices are set by the cost of imported LNG.

whizzter 2mo ago

The energy mix for electricity in Sweden, Norway and Finland is mostly made up of hydro+nuclear+wind, especially wind and hydro complements each other very well since hydro is very much on-demand and can cover for most temporary wind shortfalls. Driving through my childhood area up north a few weeks back I was also surprised by the amount of solar going up, for comparison this is an area _north of_ Anchorage/Alaska with less than 3 hours of sun around Christmas, but already by late January (usually the coldest period of the year) there is over 6 hours of sun a day (so with high pressure cold peaks with less wind, the 6 hours probably eases the power bill quite a bit). An interesting fact about those solar installations was that the panels were mounted almost vertically (probably to avoid being snowed over but also useful in the winter since the sun mostly just shines from the south anyhow).

mapontosevenths 2mo ago

North Americans mostly do not use electricity for heat in the winter. Around 60% use natural gas with forced air furnaces. Something closer to 80% have the option, but 20% don't bother to use it. Some of the deep south get by with electric heat, but they aren't in places where the cold is a typically a legitimate danger to health and safety.

ricardobayes 2mo ago
I find something very refreshing in this, reading from Europe where we get told "gas" is the big bad, even threatening to make condensing gas boilers illegal from time to time [0], despite over 95% of homes (in the UK) being heated by this method. That said most of Europe doesn't heat or cool adequately, Spain and Portugal barely heat their homes in winter and boy it gets cold with 41F/5C nights. Then Germany/Switzerland refuse to use A/C even though the summers get to 95F/35C. Just a few days ago a friend told me he went to the doctor and the doctor passed out during examination from the heat. ps. Not sure why it's downvoted, I think people read something into my comment that I didn't want to express. [0]: https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/advice/uk-boiler-ban https://www.edfenergy.com/heating/advice/uk-boiler-ban
- actionfromafar 2mo ago
  Europe has unlimited wind, not unlimited gas. Electrification of most things is just a matter of time. Gas for heating is wasteful. I think AC will get very popular eventually once the stragglers realize that these are not unusual one-off warm summers, but is a result of global warming.
- nicoburns 2mo ago
  > Reading from Europe where we get told "gas" is the big bad, even threatening to make condensing gas boilers illegal from time to time Long-term this is true, and it makes sense to ban gas boilers (potentially with some exceptions): electric heat is significantly more efficient, and can run on renewable energy. But that requires a big investment in infrastructure build-out (heat pumps) which will take decades, and we definitely need to be careful that we handle the transition without screwing people over.