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US has absurdly large domestic energy resources like gas reserves, coal reserves, uranium, and thermal energy infrastructure. Then, there is the supply chain a

US has absurdly large domestic energy resources like gas reserves, coal reserves, uranium, and thermal energy infrastructure. Then, there is the supply chain argument: the specialized turbines, components, vessels and manufacturing chains are manufactured overseas and imported to support Wind. RWE is itself German. It’s good to reduce dependence on foreign supply chains. Fishing and maritime was also cited as a concern. Onshore Wind is used (see New Mexico). Offshore Wind is a harder sell. Gas/nuclear/geothermal is a better investment for the US than Offshore Wind.

brookst 3mo ago
> It’s good to reduce dependence on foreign supply chains. Huh? That’s quite a whopper to drop as if it’s an obvious truth. It’s good to diversify supply chains. Eggs-in-one-basket is bad for many reasons, even if it’s your own domestic basket. Trade interdependence is good for competition, reduces risks from disasters, and creates disincentives for war. And the market apparently thinks offshore wind is a good investement for the US, to the point where the government has to pay companies not to do it.
- firesteelrain 3mo ago
  See 1. https://www.energy.gov/cmei/systems/securing-us-supply-chain-wind-energy-industry https://www.energy.gov/cmei/systems/securing-us-supply-chain... 2. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/84710.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/84710.pdf 3. https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-26-107769 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-26-107769 4. https://www.energy.gov/cmei/wind/articles/report-outlines-supply-chain-needs-achieve-offshore-wind-2030-goal https://www.energy.gov/cmei/wind/articles/report-outlines-su...
windyoil 3mo ago
Do you know if it would be easier to get fully domestic supply and manufacturing chains for solar or for wind, if a way is found to prevent corruption undermining setting up fully domestic production?
- firesteelrain 3mo ago
  For onshore wind, probably wind. For offshore wind, not nearly as clear. The US still lacks a lot of the specialized vessels, ports and manufacturing capacity. Solar has bigger upstream dependence on Asian wafer/cell production.
  - ceejayoz 3mo ago
    > The US still lacks a lot of the specialized vessels, ports and manufacturing capacity. Maybe we should put the $1.2B into that sort of thing, then?
    - firesteelrain 3mo ago
      [dead]
    - windyoil 3mo ago
      [dead]
      - ceejayoz 3mo ago
        > one would have to be careful that it does not end up lost in corruption I think that ship, as it were, has sailed. > The concerns about radar and wind turbines do not seem fake when private sector military companies try to offer solutions for it. Contractors - especially military ones! - love to sell solutions to fake problems (or fake solutions to real problems) if they can get away with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651
  - glaslong 3mo ago
    Forgive the ignorance, what drives the demand for offshore wind instead of on land anyway? Shorter power run to coastal cities vs longer transmission loss from exurban environments? And with solar, I can't imagine that would be fast to stand up production for... but we're attempting the Herculean task with modern chip fabs. Would panels be harder than that? They both seem existential needs for the future of the country.
m4ck_ 3mo ago
>It’s good to reduce dependence on foreign supply chains The fact that we're still basically entirely reliant on the middle east and other foreign producers for our domestic fuel supply suggests this isn't really that big of a deal. Even in the middle of a war that is generating massive profits for the oil industry, no one is suggesting they should add refinery capacity or convert existing ones to use domestic oil. This move is about the president's personal vendetta against offshore wind and satisfying his financial backers in the fossil fuel industry.
- firesteelrain 3mo ago
  I disagree. The US is the largest producer of oil and natural gas in the world. We’re also a net energy exporter. We import some crude because our refineries are set up for it. That’s a long way from being “entirely reliant” on foreign fuel.
  - m4ck_ 3mo ago
    We are indeed the largest producer of oil and natural gas. In this case, "some" is like 70%. Maybe that's not "entirely reliant", but it's far from independence. If other countries stopped selling us oil, our car-centric society would be FUBAR for some time. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc... https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_d_nus_Z00_mbblpd_a.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_d_nus_Z00_mbblp... https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_exp_dc_NUS-Z00_mbblpd_a.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_exp_dc_NUS-Z00_mbblpd_...
    - firesteelrain 3mo ago
      70% figure isn’t dependence on foreign oil for 70% of our consumption. The US both imports and exports huge amounts of petroleum. And most US crude imports come from Canada, not the Middle East. If the Middle East suddenly stopped it would cause a disruption but that’s very different than saying the US is reliant on the Middle East.
ch_sm 3mo ago
While these arguments are valid, you’re missing the forrest for the trees. Renewable energy has better long-term ROI because it doesn’t require constant purchase of fuel. Renewable energy plants also produce far, far less CO2 that goes into the atmosphere and endangers our biosphere (yours and mine).
- firesteelrain 3mo ago
  [dead]

brookst 3mo ago

> It’s good to reduce dependence on foreign supply chains. Huh? That’s quite a whopper to drop as if it’s an obvious truth. It’s good to diversify supply chains. Eggs-in-one-basket is bad for many reasons, even if it’s your own domestic basket. Trade interdependence is good for competition, reduces risks from disasters, and creates disincentives for war. And the market apparently thinks offshore wind is a good investement for the US, to the point where the government has to pay companies not to do it.

firesteelrain 3mo ago
See 1. https://www.energy.gov/cmei/systems/securing-us-supply-chain-wind-energy-industry https://www.energy.gov/cmei/systems/securing-us-supply-chain... 2. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/84710.pdf https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/84710.pdf 3. https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-26-107769 https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-26-107769 4. https://www.energy.gov/cmei/wind/articles/report-outlines-supply-chain-needs-achieve-offshore-wind-2030-goal https://www.energy.gov/cmei/wind/articles/report-outlines-su...

windyoil 3mo ago

Do you know if it would be easier to get fully domestic supply and manufacturing chains for solar or for wind, if a way is found to prevent corruption undermining setting up fully domestic production?

firesteelrain 3mo ago
For onshore wind, probably wind. For offshore wind, not nearly as clear. The US still lacks a lot of the specialized vessels, ports and manufacturing capacity. Solar has bigger upstream dependence on Asian wafer/cell production.
- ceejayoz 3mo ago
  > The US still lacks a lot of the specialized vessels, ports and manufacturing capacity. Maybe we should put the $1.2B into that sort of thing, then?
  - firesteelrain 3mo ago
    [dead]
  - windyoil 3mo ago
    [dead]
    - ceejayoz 3mo ago
      > one would have to be careful that it does not end up lost in corruption I think that ship, as it were, has sailed. > The concerns about radar and wind turbines do not seem fake when private sector military companies try to offer solutions for it. Contractors - especially military ones! - love to sell solutions to fake problems (or fake solutions to real problems) if they can get away with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651
- glaslong 3mo ago
  Forgive the ignorance, what drives the demand for offshore wind instead of on land anyway? Shorter power run to coastal cities vs longer transmission loss from exurban environments? And with solar, I can't imagine that would be fast to stand up production for... but we're attempting the Herculean task with modern chip fabs. Would panels be harder than that? They both seem existential needs for the future of the country.

m4ck_ 3mo ago

>It’s good to reduce dependence on foreign supply chains The fact that we're still basically entirely reliant on the middle east and other foreign producers for our domestic fuel supply suggests this isn't really that big of a deal. Even in the middle of a war that is generating massive profits for the oil industry, no one is suggesting they should add refinery capacity or convert existing ones to use domestic oil. This move is about the president's personal vendetta against offshore wind and satisfying his financial backers in the fossil fuel industry.

firesteelrain 3mo ago
I disagree. The US is the largest producer of oil and natural gas in the world. We’re also a net energy exporter. We import some crude because our refineries are set up for it. That’s a long way from being “entirely reliant” on foreign fuel.
- m4ck_ 3mo ago
  We are indeed the largest producer of oil and natural gas. In this case, "some" is like 70%. Maybe that's not "entirely reliant", but it's far from independence. If other countries stopped selling us oil, our car-centric society would be FUBAR for some time. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc... https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_d_nus_Z00_mbblpd_a.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_d_nus_Z00_mbblp... https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_exp_dc_NUS-Z00_mbblpd_a.htm https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_exp_dc_NUS-Z00_mbblpd_...
  - firesteelrain 3mo ago
    70% figure isn’t dependence on foreign oil for 70% of our consumption. The US both imports and exports huge amounts of petroleum. And most US crude imports come from Canada, not the Middle East. If the Middle East suddenly stopped it would cause a disruption but that’s very different than saying the US is reliant on the Middle East.

ch_sm 3mo ago

While these arguments are valid, you’re missing the forrest for the trees. Renewable energy has better long-term ROI because it doesn’t require constant purchase of fuel. Renewable energy plants also produce far, far less CO2 that goes into the atmosphere and endangers our biosphere (yours and mine).

firesteelrain 3mo ago
[dead]