4 ms·

It happened in Spain months ago. Then the "marketers" start calling from international phone numbers.

inigyou 2mo ago
Let them pay international rates. One dollar a minute, eh? If they're calling from within the EU then a cross-country judgement is still enforceable, so I assume they aren't doing that.
- nxm 2mo ago
  Is it though in practice?
- gruez 2mo ago
  "International rates" aren't a thing anymore since the advent of VOIP. It doesn't matter whether you're connecting from France or Fiji, with VOIP you pay the same rate.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    There are three kinds of VOIP you could be talking about. The first kind sends your call out from a local number in the country you're calling to. So someone in France has a French number, and you can use it following French local tariffs + a bit. The owner of this number would be prosecuted if he didn't cooperate with enforcing the law. The second way is that you use IP to connect to your own country's PSTN. Normal international rates apply. The third is that you use a platform like WhatsApp with no relation to the PSTN. In this case I don't know how the law applies. The fourth kind (which you are not talking about) is that your PSTN carrier privately uses IP to connect to the French PSTN carrier but it looks like PSTN on both sides.
    - gruez 2mo ago
      At least in the US, VOIP providers (think google voice or twilio) interconnect with telephone companies similar to how landline/cellphone companies interconnect with each other, so #1 and #4 are essentially the same. The only difference is what the "from" number appears as. If you look at the price lists of voip providers, you'll note that the only factor that determines the price is where you're calling to, not where you're calling from.
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        That provider is either only providing service to one country (very likely because this is separately regulated in every country), is showing you prices specific to your country, or is doing #1 and making themselves liable for spam.
        gruez 2mo ago
        >That provider is either only providing service to one country (very likely because this is separately regulated in every country), twilio can hardly be described as "providing service to one country", and has the same price list whether I'm using an American VPN or Dutch VPN: https://www.twilio.com/en-us/voice/pricing/fr https://www.twilio.com/en-us/voice/pricing/fr
        inigyou 2mo ago
        You see how it says "local"? That means a local call.
        gruez 2mo ago
        That doesn't make any sense when you look at the other options, one of which is "Mobile calls", but no "long distance" or "foreign" option. Moreover twilio operates over the internet. There's no concept of "local" on the internet. The concept of long distance only really exists for landlines and cell phones, but even in the latter case it gets blurred because of wifi calling. You could have a SIM for a US carrier but be using wifi calling from hong kong, and that would still be a "local" call.
        inigyou 2mo ago
        Exactly, no long distance or foreign option. So these must be local calls, meaning they are made from a French twilio number to a French number.
        2mo ago
- pixel_popping 2mo ago
  International rates are just a consumer thing.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    Explain how this can exist concurrently on the front page with this, then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49183953 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49183953
    - pixel_popping 2mo ago
      That's very different, that's a "botnet" style where you leverage consumer hardware and use them without their knowledge, similar to how you'd run a botnet farm for residential proxies (what Perplexity and so-on are using). There is many ways of doing spam/fraud, think also that some are not very clever nor have good financial literacy, they just don't know the best mechanisms due to lack of education in tech (and the dark side). For example, some would pay an infected residential network for $5 per GB, and some will only pay $0.10 per GB, depending on how knowledgeable they are. Most calls/bulk SMS can be done cheaply by just buying Stolen VoIP enterprise accounts (available on a ton of forums), a "scam" operation will resort to any way possible because they don't have any law affecting them as they do so already illegally, it's not the same as "marketing calls".
hollow-moe 2mo ago
Then most people can just block all international numbers. Hope to see phone number whitelisting soon.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
wolvoleo 2mo ago
AHH is that why I get so many international calls? Also the energy company scammers in Spain are still going strong. Even on local numbers.

Let them pay international rates. One dollar a minute, eh? If they're calling from within the EU then a cross-country judgement is still enforceable, so I assume they aren't doing that.

nxm 2mo ago
Is it though in practice?
gruez 2mo ago
"International rates" aren't a thing anymore since the advent of VOIP. It doesn't matter whether you're connecting from France or Fiji, with VOIP you pay the same rate.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  There are three kinds of VOIP you could be talking about. The first kind sends your call out from a local number in the country you're calling to. So someone in France has a French number, and you can use it following French local tariffs + a bit. The owner of this number would be prosecuted if he didn't cooperate with enforcing the law. The second way is that you use IP to connect to your own country's PSTN. Normal international rates apply. The third is that you use a platform like WhatsApp with no relation to the PSTN. In this case I don't know how the law applies. The fourth kind (which you are not talking about) is that your PSTN carrier privately uses IP to connect to the French PSTN carrier but it looks like PSTN on both sides.
  - gruez 2mo ago
    At least in the US, VOIP providers (think google voice or twilio) interconnect with telephone companies similar to how landline/cellphone companies interconnect with each other, so #1 and #4 are essentially the same. The only difference is what the "from" number appears as. If you look at the price lists of voip providers, you'll note that the only factor that determines the price is where you're calling to, not where you're calling from.
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      That provider is either only providing service to one country (very likely because this is separately regulated in every country), is showing you prices specific to your country, or is doing #1 and making themselves liable for spam.
      - gruez 2mo ago
        >That provider is either only providing service to one country (very likely because this is separately regulated in every country), twilio can hardly be described as "providing service to one country", and has the same price list whether I'm using an American VPN or Dutch VPN: https://www.twilio.com/en-us/voice/pricing/fr https://www.twilio.com/en-us/voice/pricing/fr
        inigyou 2mo ago
        You see how it says "local"? That means a local call.
        gruez 2mo ago
        That doesn't make any sense when you look at the other options, one of which is "Mobile calls", but no "long distance" or "foreign" option. Moreover twilio operates over the internet. There's no concept of "local" on the internet. The concept of long distance only really exists for landlines and cell phones, but even in the latter case it gets blurred because of wifi calling. You could have a SIM for a US carrier but be using wifi calling from hong kong, and that would still be a "local" call.
        inigyou 2mo ago
        Exactly, no long distance or foreign option. So these must be local calls, meaning they are made from a French twilio number to a French number.
        2mo ago
pixel_popping 2mo ago
International rates are just a consumer thing.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  Explain how this can exist concurrently on the front page with this, then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49183953 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49183953
  - pixel_popping 2mo ago
    That's very different, that's a "botnet" style where you leverage consumer hardware and use them without their knowledge, similar to how you'd run a botnet farm for residential proxies (what Perplexity and so-on are using). There is many ways of doing spam/fraud, think also that some are not very clever nor have good financial literacy, they just don't know the best mechanisms due to lack of education in tech (and the dark side). For example, some would pay an infected residential network for $5 per GB, and some will only pay $0.10 per GB, depending on how knowledgeable they are. Most calls/bulk SMS can be done cheaply by just buying Stolen VoIP enterprise accounts (available on a ton of forums), a "scam" operation will resort to any way possible because they don't have any law affecting them as they do so already illegally, it's not the same as "marketing calls".

hollow-moe 2mo ago

Then most people can just block all international numbers. Hope to see phone number whitelisting soon.

deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]

wolvoleo 2mo ago

AHH is that why I get so many international calls? Also the energy company scammers in Spain are still going strong. Even on local numbers.