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We've "imported" this concern to the UK too, largely driven by the same issues seemingly whipped up by US lack of regulation much more than local examples (that

by vidarh 2mo ago

We've "imported" this concern to the UK too, largely driven by the same issues seemingly whipped up by US lack of regulation much more than local examples (that's not to say there have been no cases of bad buildouts here). Many of the people now extremely opposed to data centres seem to believe the UK didn't have any data centres recently, never mind that you can pass by data centres in e.g. London Docklands and mistake it for an office building. In some cases they are in a subset of floors of office buildings. I'm all for regulating them so they need to account for externalities, but the blind opposition to them is frustrating, not least because it means there's no pressure to deal with the actual regulatory gaps since the focus ends up being on trying to block projects.

selfhoster1312 2mo ago
> deal with the actual regulatory gaps since the focus ends up being on trying to block projects Two counterpoints: - the problem is not in "regulatory" gaps, but in how regulations are actually applied; regulation is usually good for protecting the environment and the neighbors... the question is more why regulations never apply to billionaires? to politicians' friends? - for any "gap" that you'd like addressed, how do you see yourself tilting the balance of power if not with a strong opposition? do you think people in power care at all about a mildly-displeased middle class citizen who'd like to amend a text? no, they only care about an angry mob and then might try to make concessions
- vidarh 2mo ago
  > - the problem is not in "regulatory" gaps, but in how regulations are actually applied; regulation is usually good for protecting the environment and the neighbors... the question is more why regulations never apply to billionaires? to politicians' friends? It may be in both, but there certainly are gaps in regulation as well. E.g. a new concern here is the effect on energy prices, where regulation to force large data centre projects to fund sufficient improvements to energy infrastructure would address it. But sure, it won't help if the regulations aren't enforced. That's seemingly a bigger concern in the US than in the UK. E.g. we have at least two projects in London alone where waste heat from data centres will be fed into district heating loops. Using the planning process as a means to mitigate concerns with these projects works when the will is there and the regulations allow for it. > - for any "gap" that you'd like addressed, how do you see yourself tilting the balance of power if not with a strong opposition? do you think people in power care at all about a mildly-displeased middle class citizen who'd like to amend a text? no, they only care about an angry mob and then might try to make concessions The point is that if the angry mob points at X while the problem is Y, the angry mob isn't likely to get anything resolved even if/when politicians are sympathetic. If anything else, if your cynical about politicians: If a mob is focused on the wrong target, how likely do you think it is that a politician will try to find a way to take advantage of that rather than patiently explaining why they're focused on the wrong issue? The problem is not more data centres. The problem is noise, water, energy. That problem is both not unique to data centres, and also not something that is an issue with all data centre projects. The right way of addressing that is to ensure that externalities are addressed and mitigation paid for irrespective of what gets built.
pjc50 2mo ago
The power supply issue is very real, though. UK has expensive electricity and high-megawattage data centers are obviously not going to help with that. (The water issue doesn't pass the smell test for me because I expected data centers to be closed loop, but if it does apply? London is currently on a hosepipe ban!) Let's not forget that some of this is a proxy issue for the downstream impacts of AI, spam, job destruction, community disruption, etc.
- vidarh 2mo ago
  The power supply concern is real, but it's also "just" a regulatory issue. The UK has some expectations of paying for impact on the upstream power network, but the requirements are not nearly sufficient to deal with a massive increased demand. Fixing regulations for that to require demonstrating commercial arrangements to fund additional supply to mitigate cost would address that, however, and that'd be a broader social good: Start out with the assumption that anything energy intensive must cover its externalities. Then you can selectively drop those requirements for things you consider sufficiently beneficial to justify socialising the cost. More general-purpose regulations would be better, but local authorities can already to a large extend address this as part of the process of granting (or not) planning permission. Regarding the water issue, it is real in places where it is insufficiently regulated - it's cheaper to dump the water many places. But it absolutely can be closed loop, and you can get district heating out of it. You just need to make the demands. > Let's not forget that some of this is a proxy issue for the downstream impacts of AI, spam, job destruction, community disruption, etc. Absolutely. But I also think that peoples real concerns will get harmed from going after data centres with arguments that are easy to dismiss instead of directing the criticism against the real issues.

by vidarh 2mo ago

selfhoster1312 2mo ago

> deal with the actual regulatory gaps since the focus ends up being on trying to block projects Two counterpoints: - the problem is not in "regulatory" gaps, but in how regulations are actually applied; regulation is usually good for protecting the environment and the neighbors... the question is more why regulations never apply to billionaires? to politicians' friends? - for any "gap" that you'd like addressed, how do you see yourself tilting the balance of power if not with a strong opposition? do you think people in power care at all about a mildly-displeased middle class citizen who'd like to amend a text? no, they only care about an angry mob and then might try to make concessions

vidarh 2mo ago
> - the problem is not in "regulatory" gaps, but in how regulations are actually applied; regulation is usually good for protecting the environment and the neighbors... the question is more why regulations never apply to billionaires? to politicians' friends? It may be in both, but there certainly are gaps in regulation as well. E.g. a new concern here is the effect on energy prices, where regulation to force large data centre projects to fund sufficient improvements to energy infrastructure would address it. But sure, it won't help if the regulations aren't enforced. That's seemingly a bigger concern in the US than in the UK. E.g. we have at least two projects in London alone where waste heat from data centres will be fed into district heating loops. Using the planning process as a means to mitigate concerns with these projects works when the will is there and the regulations allow for it. > - for any "gap" that you'd like addressed, how do you see yourself tilting the balance of power if not with a strong opposition? do you think people in power care at all about a mildly-displeased middle class citizen who'd like to amend a text? no, they only care about an angry mob and then might try to make concessions The point is that if the angry mob points at X while the problem is Y, the angry mob isn't likely to get anything resolved even if/when politicians are sympathetic. If anything else, if your cynical about politicians: If a mob is focused on the wrong target, how likely do you think it is that a politician will try to find a way to take advantage of that rather than patiently explaining why they're focused on the wrong issue? The problem is not more data centres. The problem is noise, water, energy. That problem is both not unique to data centres, and also not something that is an issue with all data centre projects. The right way of addressing that is to ensure that externalities are addressed and mitigation paid for irrespective of what gets built.

pjc50 2mo ago

The power supply issue is very real, though. UK has expensive electricity and high-megawattage data centers are obviously not going to help with that. (The water issue doesn't pass the smell test for me because I expected data centers to be closed loop, but if it does apply? London is currently on a hosepipe ban!) Let's not forget that some of this is a proxy issue for the downstream impacts of AI, spam, job destruction, community disruption, etc.

vidarh 2mo ago
The power supply concern is real, but it's also "just" a regulatory issue. The UK has some expectations of paying for impact on the upstream power network, but the requirements are not nearly sufficient to deal with a massive increased demand. Fixing regulations for that to require demonstrating commercial arrangements to fund additional supply to mitigate cost would address that, however, and that'd be a broader social good: Start out with the assumption that anything energy intensive must cover its externalities. Then you can selectively drop those requirements for things you consider sufficiently beneficial to justify socialising the cost. More general-purpose regulations would be better, but local authorities can already to a large extend address this as part of the process of granting (or not) planning permission. Regarding the water issue, it is real in places where it is insufficiently regulated - it's cheaper to dump the water many places. But it absolutely can be closed loop, and you can get district heating out of it. You just need to make the demands. > Let's not forget that some of this is a proxy issue for the downstream impacts of AI, spam, job destruction, community disruption, etc. Absolutely. But I also think that peoples real concerns will get harmed from going after data centres with arguments that are easy to dismiss instead of directing the criticism against the real issues.