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I find it interesting to track the reality of using these free-er devices well after launch. Sadly it always seems incredibly painful and hinted at post-launch

I find it interesting to track the reality of using these free-er devices well after launch. Sadly it always seems incredibly painful and hinted at post-launch improvements tend to be small if they come at all. https://forums.puri.sm/t/each-update-makes-my-librem5-worse/30984 https://forums.puri.sm/t/each-update-makes-my-librem5-worse/...

handedness 2mo ago
I wish these devices were ready to be viable alternatives for anyone not possessing a religious extremist's level of zeal for it, but they's still so far from ready. It's a shame, since we need something like this to be viable. The promise of, 'it's FOSS and these issues will be addressed,' sure didn't pan out with the PinePhone Pro, and it isn't panning out for the Librem 5. And that's setting aside hardware specs that would have been challenging over a decade ago. It turns out that when the basic user experience is terrible, adoption rates are almost non-existent, and therefore nobody develops for it. The companies themselves have also done a seriously insufficient job of supporting their devices.
- seba_dos1 2mo ago
  I'm getting tired of all this exaggeration. I don't think there's any significant component in the Librem 5 that has even existed a decade ago already. Perhaps the audio codec. Sure, it can be underwhelming today when it comes to performance, but it's still usable and was absolutely nowhere near "challenging" back when it was fresh - also, the software got significantly more usable and performant over time. I have recently booted an image from around 2020, the progress was stunning.
  - handedness 2mo ago
    Then read more closely. I didn't say the components existed a decade ago. The performance level of that SoC would have been challenging to get what typical phone users would consider a good experience out of a decade ago. The 2016 Pixel 1, for example was a much higher performance device. Apple's iPhones from that era required considerable tradeoffs to achieve the performance they did. Some owners apparently disagree with you that the Librem 5 still usable. One, who shills for it tirelessly, states the need to disable JS to render some modern sites, a tradeoff he's happy to make, and that's his right, but to recommend something with such a heavy caveat as the solution to nearly every problem is inane. If you're looking for exaggeration, there it is. There are valid reasons very few people use them. The situation won't get better by pretending the device is something it isn't. We need an open modern device, and the Librem 5 just isn't it, despite the loud assertions of a few to the contrary.
    - seba_dos1 2mo ago
      Sorry? Pixel 1 was a 2016 high-end mainstream phone that costed about the same as a niche and low-volume Linux phone in its crowdfunding campaign just a year later. It's actually fairly similar spec-wise to Librem 5, with exception of its noticeably more powerful GPU. Both these phones have some features the other doesn't. Some owners disagree, others agree. For what it's worth, I don't disable JavaScript on my phone's browser.
      - handedness 2mo ago
        So, a 2016 flagship phone available for purchase in 2016 benchmarks at about 2x the Librem 5, not factoring in the noticeably more powerful GPU, as you mention. The Pixel 3a, a midrange phone that shipped in 2019, opens that gap up considerably. By the time many (most?) people got their Librem 5, the 3a was already an old device. Of course, I don't expect a low-volume crowdfunded niche Linux phone to hit a major OEM's price/performance targets. Nobody should. What I don't see a good way around is framing it as anything other than low-to-midrange performance chipset even in its day (whenever that actually was). Which is fine, tradeoffs were made, but tradeoffs they were. Something can still be viable for a small subset of people, while ultimately quite long in the tooth for the broader market. I'm glad you're happy with it as a device. Thanks for posting your photos.
    - fsflover 2mo ago
      > the need to disable JS to render some modern sites You hatred towards Librem 5 spread all over HN prevents you from correctly reading my statements. The correct statement is "I disable JS for more security and for unreasonably JS-heavy websites. I do have it on when I want."
      - deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
      - handedness 2mo ago
        Device choice is good. I'm glad the device is an available option for people whose need it meets, and I would welcome a major refresh which addresses its shortcomings so it can have wider viability. It's low-effort, endless and often misleading shilling I object to. Thinking back, the last time I had to disable JS to load JS-heavy websites on my phone was probably around 2011, maybe 2012. My more recent experience with JS blocking on desktop operating systems tells me that many JS-heavy websites tend to break pretty badly without it. A few content sites get significantly better without JS, but dependencies like banking and utilities sites mostly no longer work without it. I'm sure everyone's experiences will vary based on their particular needs. Nearly all phone users have JS enabled by default, and therefore without necessarily realizing it probably expect it to just work. I don't think it's reasonable to promote, in threads about almost every other phone (no matter how off-topic), an $800 device without at least mentioning that it may require them to make very basic and fundamental compromises to use it. 'Have you considered a GNU/Linux phone? Sent from my Librem 5" is just empty and repetitious shilling at this point. Anyone who's ever seen almost any of your comments here has now heard of it due to your promotion of it. To elevate discourse above shallow shilling, please consider mentioning any of the compromises somebody may need to address, and then explain why said compromises are worth it in your particular case, and how you got around its limitations (and every device has them). When people say it's not viable for them, consider that they may actually be right about that. Nobody would bother to call you out if you did that. It's entirely possible for people to find your way of promoting it tiring, without hating you or the device. A good comment teaches us something. The above is one way to actually do so, while still promoting that which you apparently must. Call this a personal attack if you like, but it isn't: it's an attack on endless and banal promotion of what I maintain would be an expensive disappointment for many, maybe even most, buyers. Edit: There's a lot of very reasoned pro-Librem-5 thinking in this thread worth noting: https://forums.puri.sm/t/each-update-makes-my-librem5-worse/30984/15 https://forums.puri.sm/t/each-update-makes-my-librem5-worse/... Notice how they acknowledge complexity, and their comments don't sound like they could mostly be replaced by a few clipboard presets.

handedness 2mo ago

I wish these devices were ready to be viable alternatives for anyone not possessing a religious extremist's level of zeal for it, but they's still so far from ready. It's a shame, since we need something like this to be viable. The promise of, 'it's FOSS and these issues will be addressed,' sure didn't pan out with the PinePhone Pro, and it isn't panning out for the Librem 5. And that's setting aside hardware specs that would have been challenging over a decade ago. It turns out that when the basic user experience is terrible, adoption rates are almost non-existent, and therefore nobody develops for it. The companies themselves have also done a seriously insufficient job of supporting their devices.

seba_dos1 2mo ago
I'm getting tired of all this exaggeration. I don't think there's any significant component in the Librem 5 that has even existed a decade ago already. Perhaps the audio codec. Sure, it can be underwhelming today when it comes to performance, but it's still usable and was absolutely nowhere near "challenging" back when it was fresh - also, the software got significantly more usable and performant over time. I have recently booted an image from around 2020, the progress was stunning.
- handedness 2mo ago
  Then read more closely. I didn't say the components existed a decade ago. The performance level of that SoC would have been challenging to get what typical phone users would consider a good experience out of a decade ago. The 2016 Pixel 1, for example was a much higher performance device. Apple's iPhones from that era required considerable tradeoffs to achieve the performance they did. Some owners apparently disagree with you that the Librem 5 still usable. One, who shills for it tirelessly, states the need to disable JS to render some modern sites, a tradeoff he's happy to make, and that's his right, but to recommend something with such a heavy caveat as the solution to nearly every problem is inane. If you're looking for exaggeration, there it is. There are valid reasons very few people use them. The situation won't get better by pretending the device is something it isn't. We need an open modern device, and the Librem 5 just isn't it, despite the loud assertions of a few to the contrary.
  - seba_dos1 2mo ago
    Sorry? Pixel 1 was a 2016 high-end mainstream phone that costed about the same as a niche and low-volume Linux phone in its crowdfunding campaign just a year later. It's actually fairly similar spec-wise to Librem 5, with exception of its noticeably more powerful GPU. Both these phones have some features the other doesn't. Some owners disagree, others agree. For what it's worth, I don't disable JavaScript on my phone's browser.
    - handedness 2mo ago
      So, a 2016 flagship phone available for purchase in 2016 benchmarks at about 2x the Librem 5, not factoring in the noticeably more powerful GPU, as you mention. The Pixel 3a, a midrange phone that shipped in 2019, opens that gap up considerably. By the time many (most?) people got their Librem 5, the 3a was already an old device. Of course, I don't expect a low-volume crowdfunded niche Linux phone to hit a major OEM's price/performance targets. Nobody should. What I don't see a good way around is framing it as anything other than low-to-midrange performance chipset even in its day (whenever that actually was). Which is fine, tradeoffs were made, but tradeoffs they were. Something can still be viable for a small subset of people, while ultimately quite long in the tooth for the broader market. I'm glad you're happy with it as a device. Thanks for posting your photos.
  - fsflover 2mo ago
    > the need to disable JS to render some modern sites You hatred towards Librem 5 spread all over HN prevents you from correctly reading my statements. The correct statement is "I disable JS for more security and for unreasonably JS-heavy websites. I do have it on when I want."
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
    - handedness 2mo ago
      Device choice is good. I'm glad the device is an available option for people whose need it meets, and I would welcome a major refresh which addresses its shortcomings so it can have wider viability. It's low-effort, endless and often misleading shilling I object to. Thinking back, the last time I had to disable JS to load JS-heavy websites on my phone was probably around 2011, maybe 2012. My more recent experience with JS blocking on desktop operating systems tells me that many JS-heavy websites tend to break pretty badly without it. A few content sites get significantly better without JS, but dependencies like banking and utilities sites mostly no longer work without it. I'm sure everyone's experiences will vary based on their particular needs. Nearly all phone users have JS enabled by default, and therefore without necessarily realizing it probably expect it to just work. I don't think it's reasonable to promote, in threads about almost every other phone (no matter how off-topic), an $800 device without at least mentioning that it may require them to make very basic and fundamental compromises to use it. 'Have you considered a GNU/Linux phone? Sent from my Librem 5" is just empty and repetitious shilling at this point. Anyone who's ever seen almost any of your comments here has now heard of it due to your promotion of it. To elevate discourse above shallow shilling, please consider mentioning any of the compromises somebody may need to address, and then explain why said compromises are worth it in your particular case, and how you got around its limitations (and every device has them). When people say it's not viable for them, consider that they may actually be right about that. Nobody would bother to call you out if you did that. It's entirely possible for people to find your way of promoting it tiring, without hating you or the device. A good comment teaches us something. The above is one way to actually do so, while still promoting that which you apparently must. Call this a personal attack if you like, but it isn't: it's an attack on endless and banal promotion of what I maintain would be an expensive disappointment for many, maybe even most, buyers. Edit: There's a lot of very reasoned pro-Librem-5 thinking in this thread worth noting: https://forums.puri.sm/t/each-update-makes-my-librem5-worse/30984/15 https://forums.puri.sm/t/each-update-makes-my-librem5-worse/... Notice how they acknowledge complexity, and their comments don't sound like they could mostly be replaced by a few clipboard presets.