3 ms·

I’ve heard there’s misinformation regarding water use. As far as I’ve heard, these data centers use quite a bit. I imagine they just use them for cooking and sp

by kulahan 2mo ago

I’ve heard there’s misinformation regarding water use. As far as I’ve heard, these data centers use quite a bit. I imagine they just use them for cooking and spit it back out warmer (though if we’re going to do that, I’d prefer we do it cooling a nuclear power plant, personally…) Is this not accurate? Are there any good resources that aren’t like… these companies being super honest about how super good they are?

fragmede 2mo ago
The reality is that there are two approaches for water: open loop and closed loop, and you can guess correctly at what they mean. The problem is that's subtle and we can't have subtle conversations about things.
- dividedbyzero 2mo ago
  The problem is not that subtle, the only somewhat subtle point is that people don't differentiate between the datacenters of yore that were built sort of well and sustainably and the ones built in the current mad gold rush AI construction frenzy. The former aren't very problematic, often pretty good neighbors even, while the latter are nightmare fuel and will purposely not be built to be quiet and safe and stay within available energy capacity and not deplete struggling water tables, and they have the financial and political clout behind them to get away with pretty much anything. Small wonder no one wants them anywhere near them. Traditional DCs might be able to not be a nuisance despite using evaporative cooling, but no one would build that anywhere where there is a shortage of water, and the amount of heat to be dissipated by such a DC is way smaller. But giving up a local water table might even be seen as an acceptable sacrifice, it's done for agriculture all the time, if only it wasn't done by and for the immense profit of corporations that aim to destroy all entry level jobs and profess to be scared by what havoc their own creation will wreak, all while creating an unprecedented financing bubble. Like, that's not very subtle at all. You can pick out some detail and try to make it about subtleties, but the larger context is very much not about subtleties.
  - cucumber3732842 2mo ago
    >the only somewhat subtle point is that people don't differentiate between the datacenters of yore that were built sort of well and sustainably and the ones built in the current mad gold rush AI construction frenzy So you're saying that all the rules and laws and best practices that HN has cheered for over the years that apply to new construction and new industry and claim to be about sustainability and environmental protections (among other things) didn't actually do what they were sold as being able to do? Either the new ones are cleaner (I suspect they are but the difference is probably mostly on paper), or we all got lied to.
    - trollbridge 2mo ago
      DC builders use political means to evade regulations almost every single time. So the regulations are in effect useless. I have personally observed this with them getting exceptions to fire codes everyone else has to comply with.
JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
Construction Physics [1] and Hank Green [2] have done good takes. Broadly speaking, most general-use datacenters use evaporative cooling (i.e. open loop) because it's cheap [3]. AI datacenters reject so much heat, however, that even absent public pressure they pretty much need closed loops [4]. The misconception is that while both of these processes use a lot of water, we both have and use tremendously more. That makes their levels tiny compared with plenty of uncontroversial, thoughtless uses. And the increasing efficiency makes this a choke point across medium-term scaling. (And replacing an AI datacenter with a conventional one counterproductive from a water-conservation perspective.) Power—and with it, noise, air pollution and grid-upgrade costs—is the real and present problem. [1] https://www.construction-physics.com/p/how-does-the-us-use-water https://www.construction-physics.com/p/how-does-the-us-use-w... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc&t=240s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc&t=240s [3] https://www.fwpcoa.org/content.aspx?page_id=5&club_id=859275&item_id=130961#:~:text=In%20practical%20terms%2C,achievable%20with%20efficient&text=Evaporative%20cooling%20%28open-loop%29%3A,in%20a%20tower. https://www.fwpcoa.org/content.aspx?page_id=5&club_id=859275... [4] https://axis-intelligence.com/data-center-liquid-cooling-statistics/ https://axis-intelligence.com/data-center-liquid-cooling-sta...
- kulahan 2mo ago
  Thank you very much! Lots of reading to do today :3
DaSHacka 2mo ago
I haven't heard of many open-loop cooling systems like that in HPC datacenters. The majority I've seen use closed loop, where the water never leaves the system. Similar to most watercooled gaming PC rigs.

by kulahan 2mo ago

fragmede 2mo ago

The reality is that there are two approaches for water: open loop and closed loop, and you can guess correctly at what they mean. The problem is that's subtle and we can't have subtle conversations about things.

dividedbyzero 2mo ago
The problem is not that subtle, the only somewhat subtle point is that people don't differentiate between the datacenters of yore that were built sort of well and sustainably and the ones built in the current mad gold rush AI construction frenzy. The former aren't very problematic, often pretty good neighbors even, while the latter are nightmare fuel and will purposely not be built to be quiet and safe and stay within available energy capacity and not deplete struggling water tables, and they have the financial and political clout behind them to get away with pretty much anything. Small wonder no one wants them anywhere near them. Traditional DCs might be able to not be a nuisance despite using evaporative cooling, but no one would build that anywhere where there is a shortage of water, and the amount of heat to be dissipated by such a DC is way smaller. But giving up a local water table might even be seen as an acceptable sacrifice, it's done for agriculture all the time, if only it wasn't done by and for the immense profit of corporations that aim to destroy all entry level jobs and profess to be scared by what havoc their own creation will wreak, all while creating an unprecedented financing bubble. Like, that's not very subtle at all. You can pick out some detail and try to make it about subtleties, but the larger context is very much not about subtleties.
- cucumber3732842 2mo ago
  >the only somewhat subtle point is that people don't differentiate between the datacenters of yore that were built sort of well and sustainably and the ones built in the current mad gold rush AI construction frenzy So you're saying that all the rules and laws and best practices that HN has cheered for over the years that apply to new construction and new industry and claim to be about sustainability and environmental protections (among other things) didn't actually do what they were sold as being able to do? Either the new ones are cleaner (I suspect they are but the difference is probably mostly on paper), or we all got lied to.
  - trollbridge 2mo ago
    DC builders use political means to evade regulations almost every single time. So the regulations are in effect useless. I have personally observed this with them getting exceptions to fire codes everyone else has to comply with.

JumpCrisscross 2mo ago

Construction Physics [1] and Hank Green [2] have done good takes. Broadly speaking, most general-use datacenters use evaporative cooling (i.e. open loop) because it's cheap [3]. AI datacenters reject so much heat, however, that even absent public pressure they pretty much need closed loops [4]. The misconception is that while both of these processes use a lot of water, we both have and use tremendously more. That makes their levels tiny compared with plenty of uncontroversial, thoughtless uses. And the increasing efficiency makes this a choke point across medium-term scaling. (And replacing an AI datacenter with a conventional one counterproductive from a water-conservation perspective.) Power—and with it, noise, air pollution and grid-upgrade costs—is the real and present problem. [1] https://www.construction-physics.com/p/how-does-the-us-use-water https://www.construction-physics.com/p/how-does-the-us-use-w... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc&t=240s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc&t=240s [3] https://www.fwpcoa.org/content.aspx?page_id=5&club_id=859275&item_id=130961#:~:text=In%20practical%20terms%2C,achievable%20with%20efficient&text=Evaporative%20cooling%20%28open-loop%29%3A,in%20a%20tower. https://www.fwpcoa.org/content.aspx?page_id=5&club_id=859275... [4] https://axis-intelligence.com/data-center-liquid-cooling-statistics/ https://axis-intelligence.com/data-center-liquid-cooling-sta...

kulahan 2mo ago
Thank you very much! Lots of reading to do today :3

DaSHacka 2mo ago

I haven't heard of many open-loop cooling systems like that in HPC datacenters. The majority I've seen use closed loop, where the water never leaves the system. Similar to most watercooled gaming PC rigs.