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On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails
- jauntywundrkind 2mo agoNoose keeps tightening, the war on General Purpose Computing, the war against users owning devices intensifies. How utterly fallen. We'll see what happens with the proposed ADB changes. Lots of no one asking for this, lots of people describing how badly their phone use will be greviously impacted, and seemingly very little discussion/engagement/justification. Maybe they'll fire the bullet anyways. https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/526109803 https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/526109803
- felooboolooomba 2mo agoYou will own nothing and you'll be happy.
- type0 2mo agoYou, too, will love Big Brother
- II2II 2mo agoMaybe they're right, albeit for all the wrong reasons. Perhaps the problem is our desire to have everything, no matter what the compromises are. Perhaps the problem is our inability to say, I'm going to go with product X even though it lacks Y because we actually own X. There is virtually no incentive for competition to pop up in such an environment since established companies have a lead of years, decades if you consider the size of the established companies, so consumers will follow their lead. I don't mean to suggest that buying alternatives is a solution to the problem as a whole, but doing so may allow enough niche products to survive to give those of us who are interested in alternatives and alternative to choose from.
- mayama 2mo agoI said the same thing about waiting for 24hrs before being able to use adb to install apps. About 24hrs being not a big blocker and that it was good for security. It's all about boiling the frog slowly, 24hrs is the start and then they'll add more restrictions once users accept that. Ultimately goog would like to have the system as much locked down as apple or even more.
- gruez 2mo ago>I said the same thing about waiting for 24hrs before being able to use adb to install apps. I thought it was 24 hours OR use adb?
- develoopest 2mo agoI don't understand why ensuring general-purpose computing is not a priority of the European Union. All that talk about sovereignty, and we are giving full control of our digital lives to 2 American companies.
- inigyou 2mo agoIt's a regulated market economy. Someone has to actually make the product. They can't force someone to make a product. There's MNT in the EU.
- cmeacham98 2mo agoWhile the EU and its member countries can't (or at least morally shouldn't) force people to make the product, if it was a priority they could incentivise it with funding, tax breaks, etc.
- inigyou 2mo agoNLnet funds a lot of things, few of which get very popular. It keeps a lot of FOSS gears turning but it's not making the next iPhone.
- p0w3n3d 2mo agoThey can make the product according to rules that are imposed on them. One rule: allow privacy. Unless the privacy is not in the field of interest of both the producer and the EU
- createful 2mo agoI think it might be a good idea to pause updates on our Android devices, as horrible as it is for security just to prevent this from happening. My OEM has a lot of bloat (Facebook and other junk apps you can't uninstall, useless system services, etc) that mostly do nothing except provide some functionality I don't use along with analytics every minute so they are uninstalled. "Disabling" an app does not do that much, the OS can re enable it with an update or prevent you from disabling it. I doubt there is true full privacy on a phone anymore with a stock ROM.
- kotaKat 2mo agoEvery single reboot on my lower end Motorola phone, they have decided it fit to re-enable com.glance.lockscreenM every single boot and on every single update. It's horrible. I don't think I can trust them to produce a Graphene phone at all, really, despite all of everyone's assurances.
- Markoff 2mo agojust use Shizuku + Canta to remove it
- createful 2mo agoAt least you can disable it; on some phones (especially Chinese phones) you cannot do anything to the system services, they intercept all app requests, essentially what Google did but with their system. The only recommendation I can give you is to look into Hail (device-owner app that can "freeze" apps, a "lower level" form of disabling, see https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.aistra.hail/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.aistra.hail/) which will mean even if the app gets reinstalled on system update, the device owner app will prevent it from running. I think GrapheneOS might have issues in the future considering that Android will be getting more and more locked down. People say GrapheneOS is the better OS when it just is hardened Android; it is doomed purely because of the Android base. Perhaps a Linux based edition of GrapheneOS would do well, even if it will not have a lot of app compatibility. There's only so much patching you have to do to Android before it just becomes more work than good.
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- Cider9986 2mo agoGrapheneOS has minimal, private [1] system apps so you don't have to debloat anything yourself. Manual debloating is not a good solution at the user level. Some system apps are being overhauled, so that's something to look forward to. Gallery will be [2] based on ReFra [3]. [1] Except phone and messaging but that's the cell network. GrapheneOS recommends Signal/Molly or SimpleX instead. [2] https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2083724696722301266#m https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2083724696722301266#m [3] https://github.com/IacobIonut01/ReFra https://github.com/IacobIonut01/ReFra
- mrbn100ful 2mo agoWhat does GrapheneOS have to do with this? This is very useful on OEM ROMs with a bunch of scrapware, no one expects a custom ROM to have this issue.
- nicman23 2mo agoin grapheneOS you can disable or uninstall almost everything without adb anyways
- Elfener 2mo agoGrapheneOS or other custom ROMs don't solve the actual problem that you can't just buy a smartphone and install any operating system like you can with an actual computer, despite technically being one. Also, GrapheneOS supports device attestation (the non-google kind at least), which is still ridiculous as such systems have no benefit to people, only to technofeudalist corporations.
- gruez 2mo ago>which is still ridiculous as such systems have no benefit to people, only to technofeudalist corporations. GrapheneOS literally has an app that uses attestation and isn't for "technofeudalist corporations". https://attestation.app/about https://attestation.app/about
- hparadiz 2mo agoDevice attestation is how you can use private keys you don't actually have access to. It has a lot of value to literally anyone who wants to store tokens or use one time authentication codes. Linux folks need to implement the full stack and offer an open alternative to payments, secrets, and tokens. In the age of LLMs there is no excuse. It is annoying as hell that I can't buy a System76 or Framework laptop with a fingerprint sensor but a Lenovo comes with one that works on Linux perfectly.
- spwa4 2mo agoExtremely "Googly" responses there. Not a single mention of the strategy of Google to include, oh, payment, social gaming, ads ... effectively building it into the system and totally disregarding the reasoning that people might want to remove or replace Google Play Services for those reasons. Just act like all that doesn't exist.
- dugite-code 2mo agoOk this is not as bad as I feared, disable still works and that uninstalls any updates that app has gotten. It was always a bit surprising you could uninstall an app in a "read only" partition
- belowavgiq 2mo agoHN users are so hilariously out of touch with the Android world they are downvoting your completely correct observation. I'd probably get more useful information reading Hindi Telegram groups without translating anything
- charcircuit 2mo agoIt would only uninstall it from the /data partition which would cause it to fallback to the version in the /system partition, taking you back to the version included in the last update of your phone's OS. If an app is installed to both partitions Android uses the one with a higher version.
- tstactplsignore 2mo agoThis sucks. I use adb to uninstall all of the system apps like facebook, youtube, web browser, etc. to give myself a minimalist, distraction-free phone that still has niche apps, maps, and communication apps. Might have to look into the expensive light phones as an alternative now if this update hits my phone.
- pid0x17 2mo agoI had the exact same problem because I had a strong addiction to smartphone apps. I looked into the Light Phone and The Mudita Kompakt, but I ended up buying a refurbished Pixel 8 and putting Graphene OS on it, then I installed only essential apps I need. I keep my old iPhone 12 in a drawer at home and use it for anytime I Need any apps that don't work on a custom ROM, which includes my bank app (plus, imo, it's safer not carry around a phone that has my baking data on it in case it gets lost or stolen). The light phones are a really cool concept but the Light Phone 3 is quite expensive (more expensive than a new Pixel 10) and the Mudita Kompakt seems to have a huge amount of grievances from users on their forum, so that put me off.
- ethagnawl 2mo ago> I use adb to uninstall all of the system apps like facebook I've only ever used Cyanogen/Lineage or Graphene, so I had no idea this was a thing. I'm not surprised but ... WOOF.
- ChocolateGod 2mo agoThey can still be disabled.
- tstactplsignore 2mo agoBut in like 5 seconds you can re-enable a disabled app from the settings menu, right?
- charcircuit 2mo agoYou have never been able to uninstall apps from the /system partition with adb (without root). You have only been able to disable them to stop them from showing up.
- iluvcommunism 2mo ago[dead]
- Markoff 2mo agoWhy would you uninstall them over disabling them? They make good point uninstalling is pointless, disabling achieves same purpose and it is safer. You can't use that system space anyway. if you don't want some system app running just "uninstall" (disable) it with Shizuku + Canta on any non-rooted Android, my current phone is the first one in 15 years with Android which I didn't root since unlocking bootloader on XIaomi is pretty much impossible, but anyway I can achieve pretty much same results with Shizuku and additional apps like Canta, Hail, Shizuwall, etc. Potential benefits: as mentioned, Android 17 prohibits uninstalling system apps, but allows disabling disabling apps is usually safer, and they could be re-enabled from Settings in some cases many system apps run in the background after being uninstalled, but it's unknown whether they do when disabled. Neutral: some apps might get re-enabled unless they're uninstalled (or the opposite). Potential harm: that would make it more risky for those who prefer to uninstall instead to save storage most of the already listed apps are primarily tested for uninstalling rather than disabling disabling instead, decreases privacy by not hiding apps, keeping the device unique.
- K0balt 2mo agoSeriously question; why is the answer to this not a phone that can just run GNU/Linux? Is it just the lack of application support? I mean, you’ll have blobs, but at least at the os level you’ll have options? Can’t you run an android sandbox in Linux? Docker phone? I’m sure I’m missing something here, but what?
- achierius 2mo agoDesktop operating systems != phone operating systems. You need to have a lot of support for things like "sleep apps you're not using right now" or you'll burn through battery. Not to mention that we tend to expect a lot of functionality which only works when the OS enables it, e.g. the sort of app-to-app coordination enabled by Android's App Intents. You certainly could build something like that on top of DBus, but, well, you'd have to build it.
- zekica 2mo agoxdg already provides "portals" and "XDG Intents" that implement most of what android does. Flatpak implements most of the sandboxing you have on android. It doesn't have feature parity but IMO it doesn't need to. CGroups and systemd-user can prevent apps from running in the background.
- K0balt 2mo agoThis seems to be a case of “I want to use services from companies that are built on business models hostile towards my sovereignty, privacy, and rights! ; I can’t believe hostilecorp wont let me work around their hostileOS?” I mean, it really sucks that so many people have made themselves dependent on this crap, but at some point you just have to stop buying the poison or stop complaining that it makes you sick. The poison to utility ratio has gotten so high that it’s getting increasingly attractive just to ditch the whole thing. You either have to draw the line or accept that there is no line, and that you will yield any degree of agency in exchange for convenience. For so many people, big corporations decide what they will buy, where they will eat, who they will date, how they will interact, what they believe, where they will go, how they will get there. Multiple choice is not choice. It is the illusion of choice in a fully packaged life.
- 927373912092 2mo ago[flagged]
- 927373912092 2mo ago[flagged]
- ck2 2mo ago-cough- Shizuku + ShizuTools pseudo-root via system-user * https://github.com/timschneeb/awesome-shizuku https://github.com/timschneeb/awesome-shizuku * https://github.com/legendsayantan/ShizuTools https://github.com/legendsayantan/ShizuTools * https://github.com/RikkaApps/Shizuku/discussions/462 https://github.com/RikkaApps/Shizuku/discussions/462
- throw-the-towel 2mo agoAren't they going to break that too? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49045159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49045159
- solnyshok 2mo agoI think shizuku has same privileges as adb. if adb debloating stops working, shizuku will stop too.
- jackdoe 2mo agoIn the next decade open hardware will win, any machine that exposes itself to be programmed by its user will be infinitely better than a machine that doesn't. From keyboards to phones to tractors. The appstore will die, and the walled gardens will die. Unless they use 'for the children' to make open machines illegal.
- 999900000999 2mo agoMost people don't care. Microsoft themselves are even moving Windows towards a more closed model. Apple's in the same camp. If you don't use their official magical stores or get something that has a certificate validating who actually compiled the code, all the sudden you're using scary binaries that might do weird things to your box. The six or seven percent of us that know how to use Linux will complain, but eventually I can even imagine bootloaders being locked down so much that you need to spend significantly more to buy a computer that actually lets you install what you want.
- kotaKat 2mo agoLooking at the comment in the actual code change: "If we are being asked to delete a system app for just one user set flag so it disables rather than reverting to system version of the app." ... Joy. This makes the 'nondisable' list an even more unhinged malware delivery mechanism for operators, because you won't be able to disable the carrier shitware app and it gets updates! It's time to start cracking down on malware preloads on phones and the over-subsidization of consumer products. We need to stop accepting $50 smartphones and $100 smart TVs that are crammed with a few hundred dollars of profit for the manufacturer to shove ads and malware at you nonstop out of the box.
- freefaler 2mo ago14 years ago, Cory Doctorow warned us about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbYXBJOFgeI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbYXBJOFgeI The modern societies run via those devices and the enforcement will move to the mostly free Internet that was "a long time ago, when it didn't matter as much".
- 1970-01-01 2mo agoIf you don't have root, you are not the device owner, you are a lessor to whatever companies and carriers are subsidizing your out of pocket costs. This includes iPhone and it's walled garden approach (delete Siri - you cannot, GBs of space is permanently wasted on most users and it still drains the battery when fully disabled). Locked, unlocked, and root are terms the general public has no clue about. Whenever someone buys an unrootable phone, ask them if they enjoy living under HOAs. That's the same level of control they've agreed to without root. Framing it this way will neatly land your point and just maybe reset their concept of what they should have purchased.
- charcircuit 2mo agoDo you believe the same thing about a toaster that you don't have a root account for? Do you think people didn't own things before the idea of root was created in the 1970s? Computers don't have to follow the same design choices as were done 50 years ago.
- zb3 2mo agoIf the toaster acts against my interest and I can't change its behaviour then yes, absolutely. It doesn't have to be named root, the point is that my device should act in my interest to the fullest extent permitted by the law. But those running illegal monopolies no longer fear the user and blantantly ignore their choices (yes vs "remind me later" is a good example), if I can't enforce my choice, I don't own that.
- charcircuit 2mo agoAndroid in fact has an entire Settings app allowing users to configure a lot about the device. There are a lot of choices exposed to users. Exposing this ability to the user didn't require root.
- zb3 2mo agoThe number of choices exposed to users is irrelevant, what's relevant is that choices which I'd want exposed are not exposed, and without root, there's no extension mechanism which'd let me load my code into for example the system server process. What you also seem to be ignoring is that the fact that for example there's no simple runtime internet permission toggle is NOT an accident, this functionality is deliberately not directly exposed despite creating no "security risks" and you know it very well.
- xg15 2mo agoCould someone explain this bit? > many system apps run in the background after being uninstalled, but it's unknown whether they do when disabled. Is this because some real system apps (as opposed to vendor bloat that just got the "system" flag through bribery) have components in the OS outside the "app" framework that genuinely can't be removed?
- eth0up 2mo agoI have a Moto, possibly my 10th. With each new phone, the first thing I do is initiate an ADB session to begin (a futile attempt at) removing all unnecessary bloat. If I thought it wouldn't be flagged, I'd print a list of the unbelievably superfluous slop on a stock Moto (or any Android), and Moto is better than average -- but my comments have been getting flagged a lot lately and it's not worth the work. Each year, the process becomes more and more restrictive, and what was nuke-able last year, is immutable the following. Because it's much easier and not much less relevant, I will print a list just of the Play Services festering in the background, viewable through 'developer options'. See: CrisisAlertsPersistentServices; LifeCycleService; SndDetectionService; GmcService; OfflineBeaconService_Persistent; ContextManagerService; PersonalSafetyService; AuthenticatorService; SuggestionsProvider; ReceiveSurfaceService; SendSurfaceSrvice; IntegrityApiPersistentService; GmsCoreStatsService; LifeCycleService; EmergencyPersistentService; SemanticLocation-Service; LockScreenService; SchedulerService; GoogleLocation-Service; GoogleLocationManagerService; LocationsPersistentService; DiscoveryService; Google Play Services And that is after ADB removals, and after disabling as many of the related "services" listed above as I can. There are many other "services", eg all the Moto crap, Wireless Emergency Alerts (which is 'disabled' but runs anyway), along with the cached services. Disabling as many of those as I can, the phone runs fine, with the obvious exceptions, such as google disabling certain apps that depend on the background festival. The last I commented on this, I was attacked for being anti-Google, or something. But when I acquired this phone, if I remember correctly, I bought it, not leased it. My first smartphone was from 2017, and was a Pixel. I was never satisfied with the liberties it offered, but compared to each proceeding year, it could reasonably be considered utopic. With covid, contact-tracing, or the components thereof, were hard baked into the services suite. And then everything in general just got a lot worse. My point here is not to rant, even if I am a bit. It's more so me sitting here in a mixture of awe, and cynical awareness, beholding how obtrusive, anti-user, brazen, opportunistic, self-serving, and ridiculous Android has become, and how little can be done about it, and how over time, the user's ability to do something about it, has been progressively chipped away, and is now essentially nothing, and this is all, by general consensus, just fine. And we keeping getting stronger and faster phones. Imagine how strong and fast these phones would be without the festering festival in the background. And maybe, think of the landfills, and lithium mines. Or, just freedom and dignity, an endangered duo near extinction.
- metalman 2mo agoouch,damn it's hot!, anyone else noticing the cooked amphibious odor , and hark there is a riseing chorus of croaking and peeping
- lousken 2mo agoDo I still own the device if I can't remove what I want?
- wolvoleo 2mo agoDamn this is really awful. I hope it's not all manufacturers. I always use adb to clean up my phone from Ali the bloatware crap.