3 ms·

Linux cameras can be made to work well, it's a matter of software. Case in point, newer Ricoh/Pentax cameras actually run an a Linux firmware. (See: GR IV and

by vetrom 2mo ago

Linux cameras can be made to work well, it's a matter of software. Case in point, newer Ricoh/Pentax cameras actually run an a Linux firmware. (See: GR IV and K-3 Mark II/III). Parts of the software stack are already there, but noones had the will to glue it together correctly for a mobile device usecase, yet.

megous 2mo ago
It's not about will. You need quite some HW for proper calibration, or cut corners a bit. Calibration is otherwise a few step process with some steps having substeps for each light source type.
- seba_dos1 2mo ago
  That's true, but you can cut corners and still end up like 90% there. The software pipelines that can even consume detailed calibration are a pretty recent development anyway. The "cameras on Linux phones are bad" meme is induced purely by the fact that until recently there were like two or three people who have ever sat down to seriously work on this topic across the entire community. Fortunately, it's changing (although the biggest driving factor appears to be the fact that some laptops need a similar treatment now).
- echelon 2mo ago
  We're going to be able to dump phone firmware soon and reverse compile with LLMs. This will become an assailable salient soon and by 2036 we should have dozens of competing phone operating systems and vendors. We're going to do the same for robotics and everything that gets shipped to us.
  - megous 2mo ago
    Well, rkisp1 driver that drives ISP on RK3399 on Pinephone Pro is available upstream in fully supported manner for like 4 years. It also has full docs in publicly available Rockchip datasheets and partial docs in calibration manuals. What have people done with it? Some mediocre support in libcamera? :) I don't think lack of handholding is an issue here.
    - AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
      Pinephone is a low volume product. What you need is to get the firmware for some common device that has shipped millions of units so that the number of people with the incentive to make it work is high enough to actually build a community.
      - vinceguidry 2mo ago
        I don't know what the deal is with Linux and cameras. I've got Fedora installed on this old Retina MBP and apparently Linux somehow stopped supporting the built in webcam. I've never heard of a device losing Linux support but here we are.
        AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
        Once the code is in the mainline kernel tree, things tend to stay supported indefinitely. Some devices "work" without having real support by having some binary blob or third party code which is written against a specific kernel version. The code has to be updated when the kernel changes, which is why it's supposed to be in the kernel tree, but because it isn't the kernel developers don't know anything about it and aren't maintaining it. So then instead of working indefinitely it works until whenever third party stops updating it for current versions of the kernel. Which is why all the drivers should be in the kernel tree. Of course, Apple isn't really that interested in supporting Linux since it's a direct competitor to macOS rather than a way to reduce their dependency on Microsoft/Google, so their hardware is more likely than most to be stuck using some reverse engineered alpha driver or proprietary blob extricated from the macOS one.
        megous 2mo ago
        Once code is in mainline, it's in mainline. It doesn't mean things will work, lol. It means things will rather regularly break, because many people modify shared code you depend on without ability to test on your particular HW. Not saying pushing mainline is bad. But assumption there's any kind of "support" is wrong. Code is there. That's all. You have to support it if you want it to work. (This is very particular to HW/drivers support, Linux core is supported well, I guess.)

by vetrom 2mo ago

megous 2mo ago

It's not about will. You need quite some HW for proper calibration, or cut corners a bit. Calibration is otherwise a few step process with some steps having substeps for each light source type.

seba_dos1 2mo ago
That's true, but you can cut corners and still end up like 90% there. The software pipelines that can even consume detailed calibration are a pretty recent development anyway. The "cameras on Linux phones are bad" meme is induced purely by the fact that until recently there were like two or three people who have ever sat down to seriously work on this topic across the entire community. Fortunately, it's changing (although the biggest driving factor appears to be the fact that some laptops need a similar treatment now).
echelon 2mo ago
We're going to be able to dump phone firmware soon and reverse compile with LLMs. This will become an assailable salient soon and by 2036 we should have dozens of competing phone operating systems and vendors. We're going to do the same for robotics and everything that gets shipped to us.
- megous 2mo ago
  Well, rkisp1 driver that drives ISP on RK3399 on Pinephone Pro is available upstream in fully supported manner for like 4 years. It also has full docs in publicly available Rockchip datasheets and partial docs in calibration manuals. What have people done with it? Some mediocre support in libcamera? :) I don't think lack of handholding is an issue here.
  - AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
    Pinephone is a low volume product. What you need is to get the firmware for some common device that has shipped millions of units so that the number of people with the incentive to make it work is high enough to actually build a community.
    - vinceguidry 2mo ago
      I don't know what the deal is with Linux and cameras. I've got Fedora installed on this old Retina MBP and apparently Linux somehow stopped supporting the built in webcam. I've never heard of a device losing Linux support but here we are.
      - AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
        Once the code is in the mainline kernel tree, things tend to stay supported indefinitely. Some devices "work" without having real support by having some binary blob or third party code which is written against a specific kernel version. The code has to be updated when the kernel changes, which is why it's supposed to be in the kernel tree, but because it isn't the kernel developers don't know anything about it and aren't maintaining it. So then instead of working indefinitely it works until whenever third party stops updating it for current versions of the kernel. Which is why all the drivers should be in the kernel tree. Of course, Apple isn't really that interested in supporting Linux since it's a direct competitor to macOS rather than a way to reduce their dependency on Microsoft/Google, so their hardware is more likely than most to be stuck using some reverse engineered alpha driver or proprietary blob extricated from the macOS one.
        megous 2mo ago
        Once code is in mainline, it's in mainline. It doesn't mean things will work, lol. It means things will rather regularly break, because many people modify shared code you depend on without ability to test on your particular HW. Not saying pushing mainline is bad. But assumption there's any kind of "support" is wrong. Code is there. That's all. You have to support it if you want it to work. (This is very particular to HW/drivers support, Linux core is supported well, I guess.)