4 ms·

I think part of it though is that LLMs (especially in novice hands) create code that is more difficult to review and has subtler bugs. Code review is (for many)

by bawolff 2mo ago

I think part of it though is that LLMs (especially in novice hands) create code that is more difficult to review and has subtler bugs. Code review is (for many) the least fun part of programming. Like imagine if your hobby was cooking, but you hated the cleanup. If you buy a robot that automates the fun part at the cost of making twice the mess, that is not a good trade off no matter how many extra cookies you end up with.

LPisGood 2mo ago
It is probably a good trade off if you sell cookies or if you vastly prefer eating cookies to making cookies.
- cocoa19 2mo ago
  For the owner/shareholders yes. The workers will see the fun evaporate but now they have to clean 10x cookie trays in the same 8 hours.
- bawolff 2mo ago
  Sure, and that probably explains why companies (who sell software) love AI while hobbyists who just like to program hate it.
- bigstrat2003 2mo ago
  It is, although in this case the cookie-making robot also makes 10% of its cookies with sand instead of flour. So it's still not a very good trade if you have any pride in your business or consequences for bad product.
- acdha 2mo ago
  I think that also hits what you see universally with every AI product trying to pass worse results off as a benefit: if you’re a business, the prospect of cutting your cost per cookie is really attractive as long as the decline in quality doesn’t cause people to stop buying and that’s going to get the focus of everyone who sees the financial reports more than they talk with customers. Anyone who’s going it because they care about cookies or take pride in your craft will have the opposite weighting. We’re kind of at the fast food point: before LLMs, bring successful at all in software required some level of skill (witness all of the companies getting very expensive write-offs from off-shoring or big consultancies trying to save on payroll vs. staff), kind of like how the small cafe/bakery model needed to have at least some level of craft to have something people would buy before the option of making food at a factory and shipping it became an option.
juleiie 2mo ago
[flagged]
- _dwt 2mo ago
  I think we’re on opposite sides but this is the first time I’ve seen someone in the wild share my suspicions that the LLM conflict is part of some vast ADHD vs autism hyperwar. At one point I was collecting posts I found where LLM boosters explicitly mentioned how it interacted with their ADHD.
  - ivewonyoung 2mo ago
    >At one point I was collecting posts I found where LLM boosters explicitly mentioned how it interacted with their ADHD. Care to share it?
    - _dwt 2mo ago
      No, it felt too invasive and creepy so I abandoned the idea. Or my lack of follow-through is a sign that I’m actually on the other side of the “war”. Reader decides! But suffice it to say that it was, to me, a significant trend especially around the “Claude Code moment” back in February/March is this year.
  - bluefirebrand 2mo ago
    I'm pretty skeptical of people who are ADHD and claim to be getting boosted by LLMs. It's hell for my ADHD, personally. It's an infinite rabbit hole generator and distraction machine. I have to use browser extensions to filter out stuff like Stack Exchange suggestions for interesting topics, too. I have had to block Wikipedia in the past to avoid rabbit holes there I'm better now than I used to be but I am skeptical of people who claim to both be good at multi-tasking and also have ADHD. My experience with ADHD is that multi -tasking is not a strength, it's a sign of distraction
    - jrapdx3 2mo ago
      > ... multi-tasking is not a strength, it's a sign of distraction Interesting point of view from one who's been there. Intuitively the comment makes a lot of sense. In a way human multitasking resembles how single-threaded computer programs work. That is, we focus on one task at a time but tasks can be interleaved to give an illusion of doing several tasks at the same time. Managing several tasks requires remembering the next step to do when leaving one task to attend to another. That suggests ADHD people lose track of where they left off when performing several tasks. Distraction plays a role, but I think problematic working memory is the major issue. Among ADHD researchers there's a saying, "people with ADHD know what to do but don't do what they know." ADHD task performance may improve with proper treatment.
skydhash 2mo ago
> Code review is (for many) the least fun part of programming. I'm lurking around the OpenBSD mailing list and it seems that code review is where collaboration starts. You send a patch, explain its purpose, people try it out and comment. If it's OK (various factors decide that), it's imported inside the codebase. The main issue in corporate settings is that the author of the PR wants to browbeat you into accepting his/her changes. Either directly or by appealing to the manager. They don't want collaboration, they just see you as the blocker between them and the "Done" status on the ticket.
- TeriyakiBomb 2mo ago
  I used to work at a company that did in-person pair review. I wasn’t an engineer there but the engineers all legitimately enjoyed the process. They hired very capable people as a default, so it was watching two passionate and talented engineers debate.
tshaddox 2mo ago
Or imagine a club where everyone cooks together and then cleans dishes together. Then one day some people show up at a club meeting with cooking robots that create 10x the amount of dirty dishes and then don’t help clean up at all. I bet the other members wouldn’t be happy, even if the robots mostly cooked decent food.
- red75prime 2mo ago
  Then robots begin cleaning dishes too. And the other members aren't happy, because what's the point, we are here not for the dishes, but for the process.

by bawolff 2mo ago

LPisGood 2mo ago

It is probably a good trade off if you sell cookies or if you vastly prefer eating cookies to making cookies.

cocoa19 2mo ago
For the owner/shareholders yes. The workers will see the fun evaporate but now they have to clean 10x cookie trays in the same 8 hours.
bawolff 2mo ago
Sure, and that probably explains why companies (who sell software) love AI while hobbyists who just like to program hate it.
bigstrat2003 2mo ago
It is, although in this case the cookie-making robot also makes 10% of its cookies with sand instead of flour. So it's still not a very good trade if you have any pride in your business or consequences for bad product.
acdha 2mo ago
I think that also hits what you see universally with every AI product trying to pass worse results off as a benefit: if you’re a business, the prospect of cutting your cost per cookie is really attractive as long as the decline in quality doesn’t cause people to stop buying and that’s going to get the focus of everyone who sees the financial reports more than they talk with customers. Anyone who’s going it because they care about cookies or take pride in your craft will have the opposite weighting. We’re kind of at the fast food point: before LLMs, bring successful at all in software required some level of skill (witness all of the companies getting very expensive write-offs from off-shoring or big consultancies trying to save on payroll vs. staff), kind of like how the small cafe/bakery model needed to have at least some level of craft to have something people would buy before the option of making food at a factory and shipping it became an option.

juleiie 2mo ago

[flagged]

_dwt 2mo ago
I think we’re on opposite sides but this is the first time I’ve seen someone in the wild share my suspicions that the LLM conflict is part of some vast ADHD vs autism hyperwar. At one point I was collecting posts I found where LLM boosters explicitly mentioned how it interacted with their ADHD.
- ivewonyoung 2mo ago
  >At one point I was collecting posts I found where LLM boosters explicitly mentioned how it interacted with their ADHD. Care to share it?
  - _dwt 2mo ago
    No, it felt too invasive and creepy so I abandoned the idea. Or my lack of follow-through is a sign that I’m actually on the other side of the “war”. Reader decides! But suffice it to say that it was, to me, a significant trend especially around the “Claude Code moment” back in February/March is this year.
- bluefirebrand 2mo ago
  I'm pretty skeptical of people who are ADHD and claim to be getting boosted by LLMs. It's hell for my ADHD, personally. It's an infinite rabbit hole generator and distraction machine. I have to use browser extensions to filter out stuff like Stack Exchange suggestions for interesting topics, too. I have had to block Wikipedia in the past to avoid rabbit holes there I'm better now than I used to be but I am skeptical of people who claim to both be good at multi-tasking and also have ADHD. My experience with ADHD is that multi -tasking is not a strength, it's a sign of distraction
  - jrapdx3 2mo ago
    > ... multi-tasking is not a strength, it's a sign of distraction Interesting point of view from one who's been there. Intuitively the comment makes a lot of sense. In a way human multitasking resembles how single-threaded computer programs work. That is, we focus on one task at a time but tasks can be interleaved to give an illusion of doing several tasks at the same time. Managing several tasks requires remembering the next step to do when leaving one task to attend to another. That suggests ADHD people lose track of where they left off when performing several tasks. Distraction plays a role, but I think problematic working memory is the major issue. Among ADHD researchers there's a saying, "people with ADHD know what to do but don't do what they know." ADHD task performance may improve with proper treatment.

skydhash 2mo ago

> Code review is (for many) the least fun part of programming. I'm lurking around the OpenBSD mailing list and it seems that code review is where collaboration starts. You send a patch, explain its purpose, people try it out and comment. If it's OK (various factors decide that), it's imported inside the codebase. The main issue in corporate settings is that the author of the PR wants to browbeat you into accepting his/her changes. Either directly or by appealing to the manager. They don't want collaboration, they just see you as the blocker between them and the "Done" status on the ticket.

TeriyakiBomb 2mo ago
I used to work at a company that did in-person pair review. I wasn’t an engineer there but the engineers all legitimately enjoyed the process. They hired very capable people as a default, so it was watching two passionate and talented engineers debate.

tshaddox 2mo ago

Or imagine a club where everyone cooks together and then cleans dishes together. Then one day some people show up at a club meeting with cooking robots that create 10x the amount of dirty dishes and then don’t help clean up at all. I bet the other members wouldn’t be happy, even if the robots mostly cooked decent food.

red75prime 2mo ago
Then robots begin cleaning dishes too. And the other members aren't happy, because what's the point, we are here not for the dishes, but for the process.