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FWIW, I got a lot more about virtue ethics from reading Plato's works, the Stoics, and Cicero. Aristotle is somewhat dry and tedious to read. Go for him if yo

FWIW, I got a lot more about virtue ethics from reading Plato's works, the Stoics, and Cicero. Aristotle is somewhat dry and tedious to read. Go for him if you're into formal logic and related technical systems. But if you're truly interested in virtue ethics and have some reading discipline, try Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius. On Marcus Aurelius: he's often recommended mindlessly (especially in tech circles). I actually to suggest to read him last. He does have valuable things to say, but he's the most depressive of the Big Three Stoics. You can better appreciate Aurelius if you've already digested some Socratic dialogues and Epictetus. One of the top-most Stoicism scholars (A. A. Long) describes Marcus Aurelius this way: "a melancholy emperor, who was hardly a card-carrying Stoic". FWIW, here's[1] my recommended reading order and top English translations from five years ago. Cut out the cheap rehashes by people such as Ryan Holiday and stick to the originals. A bonus note[2] on the Roman gem, Cicero, from six years ago. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990579 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24638573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24638573

RGS1811 2mo ago
Plato is delightfully weird and engaging and way more fun to read than Aristotle, agreed.
- kashyapc 2mo ago
  Yeah, I think Plato's dialogues are unparalleled. I love the rigour, drama, and how they don't end with a clear conclusion ("aporia"), forcing you to find your own.
  - DiscourseFan 2mo ago
    Well Aristotle's attempt to find a demonstrative science (or what we would refer to as science today) also led him to an aporia between universal categories and individual substance. It's just that Aristotle's aporia cannot be understood in Platonic terms.
ColdStream 2mo ago
It doesn't help that nowadays Aurelius is being held up as some beacon of masculinity nowadays. I mean there are much worse role models but so many folks have been reductionist about his views and it can be problematic. There is some good ideas but they have become idolized. I found the views of the Neoplatonists to be fascinating even if one doesn't subscribe to those views. Generally, read broadly and from multiple points of view.
- kashyapc 2mo ago
  > It doesn't help that nowadays Aurelius is being held up as some beacon of masculinity nowadays. Yeah, it's people like Tim Ferris, Ryan Holiday and others who write titles such as "how to think like a Roman emperor" (a terrible title if you know anything about Aurelius or Stoicism in some depth) and other tech bros are to blame. They drummed up excessive hype for Aurelius, he's good marketing material. Neoplatonists: I tried reading Plotinus, but it didn't resonate with me, afraid. But it was a weak attempt.

RGS1811 2mo ago

Plato is delightfully weird and engaging and way more fun to read than Aristotle, agreed.

kashyapc 2mo ago
Yeah, I think Plato's dialogues are unparalleled. I love the rigour, drama, and how they don't end with a clear conclusion ("aporia"), forcing you to find your own.
- DiscourseFan 2mo ago
  Well Aristotle's attempt to find a demonstrative science (or what we would refer to as science today) also led him to an aporia between universal categories and individual substance. It's just that Aristotle's aporia cannot be understood in Platonic terms.

ColdStream 2mo ago

It doesn't help that nowadays Aurelius is being held up as some beacon of masculinity nowadays. I mean there are much worse role models but so many folks have been reductionist about his views and it can be problematic. There is some good ideas but they have become idolized. I found the views of the Neoplatonists to be fascinating even if one doesn't subscribe to those views. Generally, read broadly and from multiple points of view.

kashyapc 2mo ago
> It doesn't help that nowadays Aurelius is being held up as some beacon of masculinity nowadays. Yeah, it's people like Tim Ferris, Ryan Holiday and others who write titles such as "how to think like a Roman emperor" (a terrible title if you know anything about Aurelius or Stoicism in some depth) and other tech bros are to blame. They drummed up excessive hype for Aurelius, he's good marketing material. Neoplatonists: I tried reading Plotinus, but it didn't resonate with me, afraid. But it was a weak attempt.