6 ms·

There's a coal mine here in Australia (NT I think) run by a company called Adani. When it was being proposed they did the usual "but think of all the taxes!" so

by Nursie 2mo ago

There's a coal mine here in Australia (NT I think) run by a company called Adani. When it was being proposed they did the usual "but think of all the taxes!" song and dance to get it approved. It's never posted a profit despite about a billion in annual revenue, and so never paid a penny of corp tax. Personally I think the tax authorities ought to take the line that a company posting losses like this is clearly not a viable, ongoing concern and ought to be wound up. If Starbucks UK is a loss-making venture, they should have some explaining to do when they're opening new branches.

bko 2mo ago
> Personally I think the tax authorities ought to take the line that a company posting serial losses like this is clearly not a viable, ongoing concern and ought to be wound up. Tax authorities don't need to do this. Investors will. Where will the money come from? If there's no future prospects, it will cease operations. > If Starbucks UK is a loss-making venture, they should have some explaining to do when they're opening new branches. I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization. Nothing about adding back to the community, paying decent wages, etc.
- Nursie 2mo ago
  > If there's no future prospects, it will cease operations. That's the point, there are plenty of future prospects, but the company is playing accounting games to hide the profits. > I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization. No, we're just calling bullshit on the whole thing because we're tired of wealthy multinationals dodging taxes in our countries. That's how they should be contributing.
  - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
    There are counties that have zero percent corporate profits tax. Be like them and the corporations won’t have a need to offshore their profit. The alternative is One World Government, which, in its lesser form, empire, has a nasty habit rapidly turning quite sour.
    - Nursie 2mo ago
      This has to be one of the most ludicrous, cartoonishly libertarian things I've ever read. No thanks! I'd rather have a functioning society!
- Swenrekcah 2mo ago
  > I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization. Nothing about adding back to the community, paying decent wages, etc. You are fundamentally missing the issue. What most of these multinationals do is to extract value from the places they operate but then move all the profit (in the books) to another tax jurisdiction, thereby not contributing to the community where they operate. Furthermore this undercuts local businesses, further impoverishing the area. Global commerce and cooperation unlocks some truly great opportunities but the finance people can really bring ruin if allowed free reign.
  - bko 2mo ago
    What value do they extract? They provide a good or service to denizens. Unless of course you believe in a serf model of government in which people are an asset of the state and everything should serve the states goals.
    - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
      This is increasingly, and worryingly, becoming an ideology people are being swept up by. It doesn’t help that there are Card Carrying Socialist activists in our public school system in Australia, indoctrinating kids in to a politically and economically bent out of shape ideology. I don’t believe many Australians are aware of just how dangerously few steps away from the mouldy bread and rotting fish head soup lines version of “equality” we really are. Since when has government, of any sort, been a reliable arbiter of truth or wisdom? P.J. O’Rourke would be turning in his grave. Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. Socialists in Schools: https://www.victoriansocialists.org.au/campaigns/socialists-in-schools https://www.victoriansocialists.org.au/campaigns/socialists-...
      - Swenrekcah 2mo ago
        The dangerous ideology is that giving money and power to corporations is any better than the government. The government in a free democracy is ultimately controlled by the people, is supposed to (and usually does) work for the people, to protect the environment where that is necessary, protect people from being exploited by too powerful corporations, etc. None of this is socialism, this is in fact the system that made the US great in the years after WW2. Also I am neither Australian nor socialist.
Swenrekcah 2mo ago
The worst part is that local competitors can’t use structuring like this to evade/avoid taxes, so eventually they go out of business.
- Nursie 2mo ago
  Yep, that's definitely one of the worse negatives here, they use this stuff to outcompete small businesses. The tax games directly fuel the enshittification of the British high street into a Starbucks/Costa wasteland.
perpetuallunch 2mo ago
Carmichael coal mine in Queensland. Queensland has a payroll tax, I don’t believe this is can be offset against losses, see here for more info https://qro.qld.gov.au/payroll-tax/ https://qro.qld.gov.au/payroll-tax/ GST is payable on goods they use and services they consume. Mineral royalties are in Queensland https://qro.qld.gov.au/royalty/calculate-mineral/rates/ https://qro.qld.gov.au/royalty/calculate-mineral/rates/ Employees of said company are required to pay income tax on their earnings. So while it may be completely factual that a resource extraction company paid no tax on its corporate profits, it is not factually complete as there is tax revenue generated by the operation of the company. A company that manages to generate no taxable profit isn’t necessarily committing tax evasion, that’s a crime. It is most likely practicing tax avoidance, which any economically rational actor ought to do. Note, I’m not making a value judgement here. There’s plenty of good arguments to be made that Australia’s taxation system is in need of reform, and many that I’m in favour but are beyond the scope of this discussion.
- Nursie 2mo ago
  I think it's very easy to make a value judgement here. In this case, at the time they were proposing the project, Adani promised around $22 billion in taxes and royalties, and the industry body talked about enough money to fund schools, hospitals and other infrastructure for near to a century. The royalties they pay are in the order of a few tens of million per annum, and they pay no corporation tax because of the accounting games they play. The company outright lied about the benefits it would deliver when it was trying to win permission for the project and is actively trying not to fulfil those promises. Now, does this all point to a need for better legislation? 100%, but good luck with that when so many politicians walk into 'consultancy' jobs in the sector when they leave office. (Also the whole "Oh but they pay income tax for their employees" is such weasel-worded nonsense. Sure they do, it's a cost of doing business. So does everyone else. They should also be paying significant royalties and corporation tax, and be slapped with hefty fines for the games they're playing with profit hiding)
  - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
    > but they pay income tax for their employee That’s definitely not what I said, nor how it works. If you’re going to mischaracterise something as simple as that, what faith should one place in any part of your comment being an accurate representation of the facts?

by Nursie 2mo ago

bko 2mo ago

> Personally I think the tax authorities ought to take the line that a company posting serial losses like this is clearly not a viable, ongoing concern and ought to be wound up. Tax authorities don't need to do this. Investors will. Where will the money come from? If there's no future prospects, it will cease operations. > If Starbucks UK is a loss-making venture, they should have some explaining to do when they're opening new branches. I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization. Nothing about adding back to the community, paying decent wages, etc.

Nursie 2mo ago
> If there's no future prospects, it will cease operations. That's the point, there are plenty of future prospects, but the company is playing accounting games to hide the profits. > I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization. No, we're just calling bullshit on the whole thing because we're tired of wealthy multinationals dodging taxes in our countries. That's how they should be contributing.
- perpetuallunch 2mo ago
  There are counties that have zero percent corporate profits tax. Be like them and the corporations won’t have a need to offshore their profit. The alternative is One World Government, which, in its lesser form, empire, has a nasty habit rapidly turning quite sour.
  - Nursie 2mo ago
    This has to be one of the most ludicrous, cartoonishly libertarian things I've ever read. No thanks! I'd rather have a functioning society!
Swenrekcah 2mo ago
> I like how discussion of taxes turned everyone into a fierce defender of profit maximization. Nothing about adding back to the community, paying decent wages, etc. You are fundamentally missing the issue. What most of these multinationals do is to extract value from the places they operate but then move all the profit (in the books) to another tax jurisdiction, thereby not contributing to the community where they operate. Furthermore this undercuts local businesses, further impoverishing the area. Global commerce and cooperation unlocks some truly great opportunities but the finance people can really bring ruin if allowed free reign.
- bko 2mo ago
  What value do they extract? They provide a good or service to denizens. Unless of course you believe in a serf model of government in which people are an asset of the state and everything should serve the states goals.
  - perpetuallunch 2mo ago
    This is increasingly, and worryingly, becoming an ideology people are being swept up by. It doesn’t help that there are Card Carrying Socialist activists in our public school system in Australia, indoctrinating kids in to a politically and economically bent out of shape ideology. I don’t believe many Australians are aware of just how dangerously few steps away from the mouldy bread and rotting fish head soup lines version of “equality” we really are. Since when has government, of any sort, been a reliable arbiter of truth or wisdom? P.J. O’Rourke would be turning in his grave. Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. Socialists in Schools: https://www.victoriansocialists.org.au/campaigns/socialists-in-schools https://www.victoriansocialists.org.au/campaigns/socialists-...
    - Swenrekcah 2mo ago
      The dangerous ideology is that giving money and power to corporations is any better than the government. The government in a free democracy is ultimately controlled by the people, is supposed to (and usually does) work for the people, to protect the environment where that is necessary, protect people from being exploited by too powerful corporations, etc. None of this is socialism, this is in fact the system that made the US great in the years after WW2. Also I am neither Australian nor socialist.

Swenrekcah 2mo ago

The worst part is that local competitors can’t use structuring like this to evade/avoid taxes, so eventually they go out of business.

Nursie 2mo ago
Yep, that's definitely one of the worse negatives here, they use this stuff to outcompete small businesses. The tax games directly fuel the enshittification of the British high street into a Starbucks/Costa wasteland.

perpetuallunch 2mo ago

Carmichael coal mine in Queensland. Queensland has a payroll tax, I don’t believe this is can be offset against losses, see here for more info https://qro.qld.gov.au/payroll-tax/ https://qro.qld.gov.au/payroll-tax/ GST is payable on goods they use and services they consume. Mineral royalties are in Queensland https://qro.qld.gov.au/royalty/calculate-mineral/rates/ https://qro.qld.gov.au/royalty/calculate-mineral/rates/ Employees of said company are required to pay income tax on their earnings. So while it may be completely factual that a resource extraction company paid no tax on its corporate profits, it is not factually complete as there is tax revenue generated by the operation of the company. A company that manages to generate no taxable profit isn’t necessarily committing tax evasion, that’s a crime. It is most likely practicing tax avoidance, which any economically rational actor ought to do. Note, I’m not making a value judgement here. There’s plenty of good arguments to be made that Australia’s taxation system is in need of reform, and many that I’m in favour but are beyond the scope of this discussion.

Nursie 2mo ago
I think it's very easy to make a value judgement here. In this case, at the time they were proposing the project, Adani promised around $22 billion in taxes and royalties, and the industry body talked about enough money to fund schools, hospitals and other infrastructure for near to a century. The royalties they pay are in the order of a few tens of million per annum, and they pay no corporation tax because of the accounting games they play. The company outright lied about the benefits it would deliver when it was trying to win permission for the project and is actively trying not to fulfil those promises. Now, does this all point to a need for better legislation? 100%, but good luck with that when so many politicians walk into 'consultancy' jobs in the sector when they leave office. (Also the whole "Oh but they pay income tax for their employees" is such weasel-worded nonsense. Sure they do, it's a cost of doing business. So does everyone else. They should also be paying significant royalties and corporation tax, and be slapped with hefty fines for the games they're playing with profit hiding)
- perpetuallunch 2mo ago
  > but they pay income tax for their employee That’s definitely not what I said, nor how it works. If you’re going to mischaracterise something as simple as that, what faith should one place in any part of your comment being an accurate representation of the facts?