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They're all still shoving tons of emulsifiers and stabilisers and coconut and palm oil and xantham and locust bean gum and stuff in though. It's almost impossib

They're all still shoving tons of emulsifiers and stabilisers and coconut and palm oil and xantham and locust bean gum and stuff in though. It's almost impossible to find ice cream without these. For e.g.: "100% All Natural Ingredients" still has locust bean gum: https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/product/remeo-n-4-pistacchio-siciliano-gelato-462ml+ https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/product/remeo-n-4-pis... Jude's Vanilla Ice Cream: https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/product/jude-s-vanilla-clotted-cream-dairy-ice-cream-460ml https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/product/jude-s-vanill... Locust Bean Gum and Guar Gum It's even true of small producers - for e.g. around where I live in Derbyshire you see "Bluebells" icecream everywhere - "Luxury Artisan Ice Cream": https://bluebelldairy.co.uk/ https://bluebelldairy.co.uk/ but it still has all the above.

OJFord 2mo ago
Xanthan, guar, and locust bean gum are to control melt and improve texture – many people add them to homemade ice-cream even.
- lrasinen 2mo ago
  Xanthan is the best if you need non-toxic slime for artistic purposes (e.g. Halloween decorations). Just make a stiff gel and hit it with a stick blender for desired consistency and lumpiness. This does introduce a lot of small air bubbles in it, so if you need clear slime let it stand for a few hours.
- physicsguy 2mo ago
  In premium ice cream you'll get 18-20% dairy fat content and no gums. In ones with gums, it's typically much much lower - 5% is the minimum in the UK for "dairy ice cream" where 100% of the fat must come from dairy but notably many things are just "ice cream" which allows substitution oft the dairy fat entirely for coconut or palm oils. Adding the gums allows them to do this because it gives the mouthfeel of creaminess.
  - OJFord 2mo ago
    Sure, but it's not the only reason to use them, you can improve mouth feel and prevent melting even if the fat content's higher. I'm struggling to prove a point because Waitrose doesn't seem to have any as high as 18% (the highest at 15-16% being own label & YeoValley, notably both using egg) – the more expensive brands like are lower fat and do have LBG/guar. Also bear in mind low-fat can be a goal itself, or vegan compatibility.
galacticdessert 2mo ago
Just for my understanding, what is the issue with xanthan gum and locust bean gum? You need thickeners, stabilizers, and emulsifiers if you want high quality ice cream and that applies to both industrial as well as artisanal. Xanthan or Agar Agar are commonly used even in household gelato (think a 1kg ice cream machine or something like a Ninja Creami - which is one of my own ever favorite and most recommended appliances) to reduce the formation of ice crystals. Locust Bean Gum and Guar Gum or is a thickener and can greatly improve the creaminess of the final product. Historically people used a lot of egg yolks as emulsifiers in ice creams, but there are reasons to limit them or directly not have them in your gelato. Think even just fat content, or allergies, or personal preference. For that you will need some sort of natural gum and as far as I know there are no known health hazards associated with them (unless you consume crazy amount like 10-20g/day, which means you have to eat it from the jar with a spoon... I would not recommend)
- physicsguy 2mo ago
  They're basically used as you say to replace things like eggs and milk. The whole point of that from the industrial perspective is to save on cost, they weren't removed on health grounds. It was pointed out in a BBC documentary recently that most supermarket ice cream is now so shelf stable that if it wasn't for rats and mice which love the sugar, it wouldn't need to be kept frozen at all during transport because of all the emulsifiers. In any case, the whole distinction around UPF vs non-UPF is the addition of ingredients that would not form part of a human diet typically. The thread above me was basically saying all ice creams are full of UPF ingredients and then someone's counterpoint was that there's plenty of good choice of non-UPFs. My point was that even things that "look" non-UPF often are. Whether UPFs are good or bad is up for debate and discussion although countries that consume a lot of them generally have much worse health outcomes.
basisword 2mo ago
This one doesn't seem to have any of those things: https://www.marksandspencer.com/food/only-5-ingredients-heather-honey-ice-cream/p/fdp60917475 https://www.marksandspencer.com/food/only-5-ingredients-heat...
hgomersall 2mo ago
It isn't, you just have to look. Most of the organic ice creams are fairly clean - Yeo Valley, Duchy. Similarly the organic vegan ice creams from Booja Booja. Some small producers are good - Alder Tree in Suffolk typically have 3 ingredients (cream, sugar, fruit) and are delicious. Saffron (around Saffron Walden) are great too.
- physicsguy 2mo ago
  It's interesting you note Yeo Valley because I've found their products very mixed - lots of them do have UPFs. It's interesting that their ice cream doesn't. There's no Waitrose within 50 miles of me (East Midlands) so Duchy not available. Booja Booja is all dairy free so I wouldn't really consider it ice cream. But in any case it all has coconut oil in it.
  - hgomersall 2mo ago
    Which Yeo Valley products have UPFs? Genuinely interested since that's not my experience. They do put cornflour in their fruit yogurts, but that seems less egregious than most. Their frozen kefir does contain stabilisers. You shouldn't dismiss Booja Booja. It's nut based and in my opinion excellent. A touch sweet, but a great mouthfeel - less cloying than dairy ice creams, but clearly creamy. The chocolate salted caramel (my favourite) contains no coconut oil. I'm not sure why coconut oil is problematic though.
    - physicsguy 2mo ago
      >They do put cornflour in their fruit yogurts, but that seems less egregious than most. These are UPFs. The point of adding cornflour or starches is to make them thicker and more luxurious in terms of the way they feel in your mouth without straining them like greek yoghurt to reduce water i.e. they're able to do it with less milk protein and fats = it's cheaper. They do this because you need 3-4x as much raw ingredient to do achieve the same result. Adding fruit purees which is the way they add most fruit to the yoghurts is similarly UPF. There's a scale called NOVA which categorises products based on the amount of processing. Plain Yeo Valley yoghurt is fine and would be classed as NOVA group 1. Their yoghurts would be NOVA group 3 or 4 and so either processed or ultra processed. This isn't to say that all UPFs are bad but it's become so normalised that everything is ultraprocessed that we don't even realise it. My wife's sister is a food scientist and this is literally her day job at a large American conglomerate with substantial UK operations - try to reduce cost of production by reformulating products while maintaining the same flavour/texture profile.

OJFord 2mo ago

Xanthan, guar, and locust bean gum are to control melt and improve texture – many people add them to homemade ice-cream even.

lrasinen 2mo ago
Xanthan is the best if you need non-toxic slime for artistic purposes (e.g. Halloween decorations). Just make a stiff gel and hit it with a stick blender for desired consistency and lumpiness. This does introduce a lot of small air bubbles in it, so if you need clear slime let it stand for a few hours.
physicsguy 2mo ago
In premium ice cream you'll get 18-20% dairy fat content and no gums. In ones with gums, it's typically much much lower - 5% is the minimum in the UK for "dairy ice cream" where 100% of the fat must come from dairy but notably many things are just "ice cream" which allows substitution oft the dairy fat entirely for coconut or palm oils. Adding the gums allows them to do this because it gives the mouthfeel of creaminess.
- OJFord 2mo ago
  Sure, but it's not the only reason to use them, you can improve mouth feel and prevent melting even if the fat content's higher. I'm struggling to prove a point because Waitrose doesn't seem to have any as high as 18% (the highest at 15-16% being own label & YeoValley, notably both using egg) – the more expensive brands like are lower fat and do have LBG/guar. Also bear in mind low-fat can be a goal itself, or vegan compatibility.

galacticdessert 2mo ago

Just for my understanding, what is the issue with xanthan gum and locust bean gum? You need thickeners, stabilizers, and emulsifiers if you want high quality ice cream and that applies to both industrial as well as artisanal. Xanthan or Agar Agar are commonly used even in household gelato (think a 1kg ice cream machine or something like a Ninja Creami - which is one of my own ever favorite and most recommended appliances) to reduce the formation of ice crystals. Locust Bean Gum and Guar Gum or is a thickener and can greatly improve the creaminess of the final product. Historically people used a lot of egg yolks as emulsifiers in ice creams, but there are reasons to limit them or directly not have them in your gelato. Think even just fat content, or allergies, or personal preference. For that you will need some sort of natural gum and as far as I know there are no known health hazards associated with them (unless you consume crazy amount like 10-20g/day, which means you have to eat it from the jar with a spoon... I would not recommend)

physicsguy 2mo ago
They're basically used as you say to replace things like eggs and milk. The whole point of that from the industrial perspective is to save on cost, they weren't removed on health grounds. It was pointed out in a BBC documentary recently that most supermarket ice cream is now so shelf stable that if it wasn't for rats and mice which love the sugar, it wouldn't need to be kept frozen at all during transport because of all the emulsifiers. In any case, the whole distinction around UPF vs non-UPF is the addition of ingredients that would not form part of a human diet typically. The thread above me was basically saying all ice creams are full of UPF ingredients and then someone's counterpoint was that there's plenty of good choice of non-UPFs. My point was that even things that "look" non-UPF often are. Whether UPFs are good or bad is up for debate and discussion although countries that consume a lot of them generally have much worse health outcomes.

basisword 2mo ago

This one doesn't seem to have any of those things: https://www.marksandspencer.com/food/only-5-ingredients-heather-honey-ice-cream/p/fdp60917475 https://www.marksandspencer.com/food/only-5-ingredients-heat...

hgomersall 2mo ago

It isn't, you just have to look. Most of the organic ice creams are fairly clean - Yeo Valley, Duchy. Similarly the organic vegan ice creams from Booja Booja. Some small producers are good - Alder Tree in Suffolk typically have 3 ingredients (cream, sugar, fruit) and are delicious. Saffron (around Saffron Walden) are great too.

physicsguy 2mo ago
It's interesting you note Yeo Valley because I've found their products very mixed - lots of them do have UPFs. It's interesting that their ice cream doesn't. There's no Waitrose within 50 miles of me (East Midlands) so Duchy not available. Booja Booja is all dairy free so I wouldn't really consider it ice cream. But in any case it all has coconut oil in it.
- hgomersall 2mo ago
  Which Yeo Valley products have UPFs? Genuinely interested since that's not my experience. They do put cornflour in their fruit yogurts, but that seems less egregious than most. Their frozen kefir does contain stabilisers. You shouldn't dismiss Booja Booja. It's nut based and in my opinion excellent. A touch sweet, but a great mouthfeel - less cloying than dairy ice creams, but clearly creamy. The chocolate salted caramel (my favourite) contains no coconut oil. I'm not sure why coconut oil is problematic though.
  - physicsguy 2mo ago
    >They do put cornflour in their fruit yogurts, but that seems less egregious than most. These are UPFs. The point of adding cornflour or starches is to make them thicker and more luxurious in terms of the way they feel in your mouth without straining them like greek yoghurt to reduce water i.e. they're able to do it with less milk protein and fats = it's cheaper. They do this because you need 3-4x as much raw ingredient to do achieve the same result. Adding fruit purees which is the way they add most fruit to the yoghurts is similarly UPF. There's a scale called NOVA which categorises products based on the amount of processing. Plain Yeo Valley yoghurt is fine and would be classed as NOVA group 1. Their yoghurts would be NOVA group 3 or 4 and so either processed or ultra processed. This isn't to say that all UPFs are bad but it's become so normalised that everything is ultraprocessed that we don't even realise it. My wife's sister is a food scientist and this is literally her day job at a large American conglomerate with substantial UK operations - try to reduce cost of production by reformulating products while maintaining the same flavour/texture profile.