21 ms·

The Web We Lost

636 points by kzasada 14y ago

endlessvoid94 14y ago
I think most of the frameworks, libraries, and tools we use to build these new services can do an awful lot more to make this kind of thing easier. I actually suspect we'll enter a new age of programming soon, where a lot of the cruft and boilerplate of managing filesystems and metadata around your data (from databases) will be handled automatically, making this kind of thing much, much easier. Who knows, though. I'm optimistic.
krakensden 14y ago
I don't understand why he thinks the pendulum is swinging back. Is there any particular evidence of that?
- lubujackson 14y ago
  I would say the first sign is that the sheen has worn off and people are starting to notice some deep-set flaws in the services they use. Fewer people think Google is good and never "evil", Macs don't always "just work", and Facebook continues to have "privacy issues".
- rheide 14y ago
  Um, did you read the article? There's tons of good points in there. Some of them might be a bit exaggerated though .(like the oembed one, was that ever popular?)
  - anildash 14y ago
    Twitter's original "sidebar" implementation of inline media used OEmbed, actually.
- gojomo 14y ago
  You're right, he doesn't specifically give support for the idea idea we're recovering these values and capabilities. But I think he's alluding to people, as they gain experience and perspective, becoming aware of the limits of proprietary platforms, and investigating (or rediscovering) other possibilities.
  - mhurron 14y ago
    I'm honestly not seeing that people are giving up Facebook or the like because of any limits imposed by Facebook. The worst I saw was some of the more technical minded go to Google+, which is basically the same thing all over again.
- gkelly 14y ago
  I don't think it's swinging back, but I would like to hear his reasons for claiming it is.
smacktoward 14y ago
I agree with Anil 110% that the Web he's talking about was, in many, many ways, a Better Web than the one we have today. The problem is that it's worse than the one we have today in the only way that most people care about: it's harder. To participate, it expected you to know how to do a bunch of things that seem trivial to tech folks but frighteningly complicated to everybody else. You had to buy a domain. You had to choose a Web host. You had to know how to connect the domain to the Web host. You had to choose the right software to do what you wanted to do. You had to install that software, and configure it properly. The reason hosted services became popular is because they let you skip all that stuff. You fill out a form and you're up and running. Someone else worries about all that other stuff for you. This makes those services accessible in a way that the Web of 2000 was not. Of course, to get that accessibility, the hosted services make you give up a lot of things. You lose access to your raw data. You lose your privacy. You lose the ability to change vendors if the one you're on turns evil. But to non-technical people, those losses aren't obvious. They don't understand what they've lost until losing those things turns around and bites them. It's like DRM: people don't understand why DRM-encumbered music downloads are bad until their iPod dies and they want to move their iTunes-bought music to an Android phone. "What do you mean I can't do that?" is what you hear the moment the penny drops. But before then, they don't understand the risk. This is what will need to be overcome to make tomorrow's Web like yesterday's was: it'll need to be as easy for people to use as today's is, or you'll need to educate the entire world about why they should put up with it not being that easy. Otherwise people will keep on blindly stumbling into the heavily-advertised walled gardens, not realizing that's what they're doing until the day they decide they want to leave, and can't.
- majormajor 14y ago
  I strongly prefer the web of today to the web of ten years ago because those barriers to entry prevented most people from doing all the cool stuff Anil talks about. So it was possible to have all those better connections, but it didn't happen much. One way or another, services would've arised that would've tied it all together for the non-technical. I don't think we lost anything more than a potential to have a "better web" that never would've been realized anyway. (And many of those things are still possible, just even less worth the effort now that there are entrenched networks.)
untog 14y ago
Funny that he says all this then has a Facebook comments box at the bottom of the page. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that IMO- people are far more likely to have their real names on Facebook, and thus leave sensible comments rather than total drivel. But it makes a point that he doesn't include in the article- sometimes these centralised information stores can be useful.
- anildash 14y ago
  I think I did mention that in the piece, but I deliberately keep the Facebook comments even on articles where I'm critical of Facebook to show that I'm not some extremist zealot. I'm just a normal person who happens to love the web.
  - chime 14y ago
    Offtopic: Can you please change your link color? It looks like every link is already visited and I know for fact I did not visit every single one.
  - graue 14y ago
    Why use Facebook comments, though? I thought what you wrote here was great, but the choice of commenting system seems to conflict with the (excellent) points you're making. Using a built-in commenting system like that of WordPress would be much more in line with The Web That Was. Those types of comment systems are still common, so using them would hardly make you a zealot. Until I came here, I didn't realize your blog had a comments section, because I block Facebook comments with Ghostery. Not worth it to me as a privacy-vs-content tradeoff. I do allow Disqus, which identifies me by email and is therefore much more in the spirit of services like Technorati.
  - jamesmcn 14y ago
    I'd like to meet someone who thinks you are an extremist zealot. Wait, no I don't. I really don't.
  - marssaxman 14y ago
    It does guarantee that people like me can't comment on your pages, though, which would not be true if you had a normal self-hosted comment system.
joebadmo 14y ago
After all that, I can't comment on the piece with OpenID or any other service I actually use. Facebook, Yahoo, Hotmail, or AOL? Really? The way out of this mess is for people with loud voices to support efforts like Tent.io, open, decentralized, standardized protocols that don't lock us into corporate silos: https://tent.io/ https://tent.io/
10098 14y ago
Maybe I have changed, or maybe the Internet has changed, but I used to meet people on the internet. I used to make friends online, and some of these friendships gradually mutated into "offline" friendships. There used to be message boards, IRC and web chats where people would talk, form groups, become friends or enemies. People used to have blogs on livejournal or other services, some were trying to create content, write interesting posts. I met a lot of new people through that medium too. But now everybody is locked inside the narrow bubble of their own social network. People don't become friends on facebook - they usually "friend" their IRL friends. You can't fit a good meaningful post into a tweet. And you can't have a normal discussion without sane comment threads like on livejournal - and I haven't seen that on any of the popular social sites. That's also a part of the web we lost.
- hmexx 14y ago
  My feelings mirror yours... I'm actually building a product that I hope can help re-introduce some spontaneity in people's online interactions, as they journey through the web. Still very early stage though: http://getmetaweb.com http://getmetaweb.com Here's a 60 second concept video: http://vimeo.com/52398982 http://vimeo.com/52398982
  - fudged71 14y ago
    Neat idea. I love the video. How would you recommend creating a video like this? Just get someone good with after effects?
    - hmexx 14y ago
      Yep.. and if you can't find anyone, you can hire someone from eastern europe to do it for under $1K. I've always had horrible results outsourcing dev work, but outsourcing design seems to work just fine.
  - ep103 14y ago
    This seems really cool. How is development coming?
aes256 14y ago
Looks like the author is wearing rose-tinted glasses to me. While much of the observations may be true, the web is still a far richer and more valuable resource than it was five or ten years ago.
- IheartApplesDix 14y ago
  I don't find this to be true, but that's perhaps I'm not far richer than I was 5 or 10 years ago. Somewhere along the way, accessibility to truth was thrown under the bus for clickbait and walled gardens.
  - marcioaguiar 14y ago
    Accessibility to truth? Tell me more about how you used to access the truth in 1998.
    - 4ad 14y ago
      The SNR was way higher in 1998.
    - yread 14y ago
      You can read all about it here: http://www.searchlores.org/indexo.htm http://www.searchlores.org/indexo.htm
    - IheartApplesDix 14y ago
      Tell me more about how 1998 is your arbitrary yardstick.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
agentultra 14y ago
I think it's rather funny when people talk about the, "social web." Before the social graph, technorati, and flickr there were newsgroups, email lists, HTTP, IRC, etc. The Internet itself is a social tool. Perhaps the term refers to some epoch of which I am not aware but it seems to me from a big-picture perspective that we've only narrowly improved the experience since Eternal September. The "walled garden" networks will always strive to find their value in lowering the barrier to entry for new participants on the web. Facebook makes it super easy to share your photos with your family and friends and passively update them on the minutiae of your life. Twitter does the same thing to large degree in a more public fashion. Tumblr, Instagram, Pinterest... all of the same zeitgeist: user experience. But the cognoscenti are certainly aware that the web is the sum of its parts and walled gardens are antithesis to participation within its ecosystem. However the problem is and has always been participation: there is no single sign-in, no simple user experience, no common parlance for the mainstream to absorb. We got about as far as blogs and stopped there once MySpace, Facebook, et al took over. I'd prefer a return to the roots but I think we'll need software and services that provide a better user experience and product-based focus rather than the service-oriented approach that has become popular.
- kjackson2012 14y ago
  I think it's different now than before because almost everyone is comfortable with the idea of communicating over the Internet. I used to IRC and MUD and the types of people that engaged in those activities were, for lack of a better term, more nerdy, like me. Back in the 1990s, people still weren't used to sitting in front of their computers all day long, because there largely wasn't anything to do with a non-networked computer. You could play games, or you could be writing an essay or a report, but there wasn't much else that could keep you engaged for hours upon hours, unlike today. People used to spend more of their time talking on the phone or watching TV, or socializing. But having computers online all the time has turned it truly into a "social web".
vividmind 14y ago
Facebook is web's McDonalds.
- djbender 14y ago
  The new AOL.
  - barce 14y ago
    This proves the quote from "Gladiator," that what we do echoes through eternity.
  - meej 14y ago
    Indeed, the first thought I had upon reading Dash's article was, "Kottke was right". http://kottke.org/07/06/facebook-is-the-new-aol http://kottke.org/07/06/facebook-is-the-new-aol
kamjam 14y ago
Meh, I disagree with a lot of that. You speak as if the internet ONLY consists of social now. Your points are nostalgic and looking at the past through rose tinted glasses IMO. Five years ago, most social photos were uploaded to Flickr You can still do this. People choose not to. I don't want strangers viewing my social pictures, esp if I had kids. These are private moments to be shared with my friends. Ten years ago, you could allow people to post links on your site You still can, it's your site. If you decide to monetize your site and display AdWords then that's your call. You don't have to be a sheep and follow what everyone else is doing. In 2003, if you introduced a single-sign-in service that was run by a company... Don't use them and create an account. No one is forcing you to use them, but for some of us (me) it's just easier to link several sign-ins together with my Google account. These are generally sites I trust. If I don't trust them then I'll use a disposable email account anyway to register. If the "average man" on the street doesn't know better then that's his/her problem, it's the same basic principle as identity theft and people guard against that. It's time they did the same online. In the early days of the social web, there was a broad expectation that regular people might own their own identities by having their own websites Really? A few people maybe, but most non-tech people I know really couldn't give 2 hoots. Wordpress and all the blogging sites have made a lot more people I know open their "own" sites than would have been owning a domain name and all the other hosting and "headache" that goes with it. Five years ago, if you wanted to show content from one site or app on your own site or app... Yes, agree it is bad, but that's business. The same thing happens in the real world, just because it is online the principles of business do not disappear and unfortunately not everyone is that tech-savvy and some of those people who pumped millions into a business may not "get" the web like you. I don't think we have "lost" any of these. People have just decided to move on as the technology has advanced. The internet is a lot more open and a lot more accessible to many more people than it has ever been. As a developer I may care about the above (I don't) but as a regular joe, I don't think I would waste 2 seconds, no matter how long I have been using the web.
- haldean 14y ago
  The point about links is that other people can profit by posting links on your site. Before Ad(Words|Sense), you could freely allow people to post links in comments (without having to worry about nofollow or anything) because people would only profit from those links if what they linked to was relevant/interesting. Now just the act of following a link can mean a few pennies in someone's pocket, so allowing links to be posted to your site is a quick way to get seriously astroturfed.
fleitz 14y ago
The web we lost is still there, it's just that's it's just as accessible as it was 10 years. We post photos to Facebook not because of the technical superiority but because our friends and family can see them. You can still put your photos on flickr where no one you know will ever see them.
gfodor 14y ago
Wow. Microsoft Passport. I haven't thought about that in years, and recalling how the tech world recoiled in horror then for things we have eagerly embraced now is illuminating.
quasistar 14y ago
Just a few reasons today's Web trumps anything from the 'Technorati' (seriously?) era: Open API's that reply in JSON, Cloud VPS's at $0.02 per hour, 10 Gb ethernet, 54 Mb fiber in my house, multicore computers in everyones pocket, GPS at everyones fingertips, web frameworks like Sinatra (yes, it took more than three lines of code and two bash commands to publish 'Hello World!' to the web back then), caching solutions like Redis, data crunching pipelines like hadoop, payment processing like Dwolla...need I go on? There will always be folks hankering for the glory days of alt.religion.kibology and compuserve. Ignore them. Create something game-changing instead.
- lifeguard 14y ago
  We didn't have swarms of zombie windows PCs to be DDOS'd by back then, either. That was a plus. AJAX is awesome, but I hate that every site uses it 'just because' and my browser in now hosting applications with persistent network connections instead of displaying a document.
- 4ad 14y ago
  Let's take an opposing view, shall we? > Open API's that reply in JSON The serialization format doesn't matter. What matter is that we have way more APIs, all different, with inconsistent semantics and non-orthogonal feature sets than the non-web APIs of 15 years ago. On average the people designing these APIs are less competent than the people from 15 years ago creating more headaches for the people that are competent. > Cloud VPS's at $0.02 per hour Cloud virtualization is expensive, not cheap. It has its merits, the overhead for elasticity is much less than it used to be, but this matters only at scale. At small scale you get unpredictable performance and terrible I/O. > 10 Gb ethernet No such thing. Even on servers its rare. I had 1 GigE on my laptop 10 years ago. I can't get a better NIC on any laptop today. The world is actually worse than it used to be because back in the day I didn't need to worry about saturating Ethernet. Now I do. > 54 Mb fiber in my house I used to be able to buy a symmetric link with a fixed IP address and reverse DNS. Now fixed IP is a rarity, symmetric links are usually not available for non-business customers and when they are, they cost more than 15 years ago. Reverse DNS? Ha ha. > multicore computers in everyones pocket I don't need a multicore computer in my pocket. I need a phone with good signal and a battery that lasts. They don't make them anymore. Even if I need a computer, smartphones barely qualify. iOS is locked and Android requires me to do a type of programming I don't like. I'm used to computers that I can program the way I want, not being bound by some framework. > GPS at everyones fingertips I don't care. I never used a GPS, never needed one. What I've seen is that now people get lost when their GPS breaks. I view that as a failure of civilisation. > web frameworks I'd probably break some Hacker News scalability limit if I started writing about this one. > caching solutions like Redis Redis is required because the other pieces of the stack suck. It's a remedy, hardly a cure from an architectural point of view. The broad architectures around us are more unsuitable and more abused than they used to be. It's actually worse than that. Unix and Plan 9 have thought us that's it is better to model behaviour through a single bounded interface rather than a growing set of specialised interfaces. This allows composition, protects against lock in, and allows synthetic components. Now there's a Redis API, there's a Cassandra API, there's a MongoDB API, there's a Zookeeper API, there's a Riak API, there's a RabbitMQ API. Everything has an API. A different API. Not only this destroys composability, it also hinders experimentation, increases the technical debt, makes the cost of transition higher, and bounds the writer into using a limited set of tools. > data crunching pipelines like hadoop Hadoop is a a player in an extremely niche field. I don't think it's relevant to talk about a thing as specific as hadoop in the context of something as general as the cultural and pragmatical shifts in the Internet. However, if you brought in the discussion, Hadoop is awful. Companies deploy it because it's trendy, not because they need it, introducing complexity, additional dependencies and a whole new set of problems to solve. Hadoop also dropped the bar on what is considered simple and sane deployment causing new software to be just as awful to deploy when they wouldn't really need to. > payment processing like Dwolla No idea what this is, but payments on the Internet are worse then they used to be. Sure, now you can buy anything, but it's harder to pay. Paypal periodically asks me for IDs and freezes my accounts just because I happen to move between two countries, there are many more types of cards, some work on the Internet better than others, some banks work on the Internet better than others. Merchants support only limited and disjoint set of payment options forcing me to have multiple types of credit cards and various types of accounts I don't want or care about. Back in the day, you had a credit card, it worked. Now I can buy groceries and shoes on the Internet. Back in the day I could not, but I didn't want to. I wanted to buy various types of equipement, and that I could. > There will always be folks hankering for the glory days of alt.religion.kibology and compuserve. Ignore them. The article was not about the olde glory days, it was about a fundamental shift in the way people and machines interact on the Internet. A transition from protocols to services. I think this is a worthy thing to discuss and your dismissive, condescending post is not warranted.
saurik 14y ago
There is an example in there of how creating a single sign-on service in 2005 being "described as introducing a tracking system worthy of the PATRIOT act". That was years after this kind of thing was considered a problem, however, and it was somewhat rightfully so, and I believe the real story is that things actually got "better" as we came to understand these services more. I am not certain things actually got worse over the last ten years: in some ways they really got better. Going back to 2002, Microsoft had been working on "Hailstorm", which was a very poorly chosen name for something that people rapidly became afraid of ;P. It was later renamed to "My Services", but it included Microsoft Passport (yes, this is mentioned in the article, but I don't think it is given enough weight), a single sign-on service provider that Microsoft was encouraging other websites to use. It would provide details about you, including your e-mail address, to the sites you connected with. I had remembered a bunch of people being angry about it, so I did a Google search for "Microsoft Password mark of the beast", and came across an article written at the time in some random magazine called "Microsoft's Passport to Controversy -- Depending on whom you ask, Passport is either a useful consumer convenience or the mark of the beast". http://business.highbeam.com/787/article-1G1-83378739/microsoft-passport-controversy-depending-whom-you-ask http://business.highbeam.com/787/article-1G1-83378739/micros... However, it should be noted that one of the fears at the time was not "man, vague centralization is bad", it was "omg, Microsoft doesn't just want this service to take over the web... they want this service to take over the world". Now, of course, you read me saying that, and think "ugh, stop with the rhetoric: that's just an example of people freaking out about something we find common-place; that's what the article is about: did you read it? ;P". But... it was actually for real. Microsoft was lobbying to make Microsoft Passport be the new US National ID system, and it wasn't just a pie-in-the-sky goal... they were lobbying to make it happen, had the ears of the right people, and were making serious progress on it. For reference, there was an article written about the situation in the Seattle Times with the title "Feds might use Microsoft product for online ID". > Forget about a national ID card. Instead, the federal government might use Microsoft's Passport technology to verify the online identity of America's citizens, federal employees and businesses, according to the White House technology czar. > On Sept. 30, the government plans to begin testing Web sites where businesses can pay taxes and citizens can learn about benefits and social services. It's also exploring how to verify the identity of users so the sites can share private information. http://web-beta.archive.org/web/20020802161525/http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134438173_passport18.html http://web-beta.archive.org/web/20020802161525/http://seattl... I thereby feel the need to note that, even as late as 2005, if you were going to start talking about building the world's next best "single sign-on" provider, this is what you were being mentally compared with: yes, the one service mentioned (TypeKey) ended up having "much more restrictive terms of service about sharing data", but it is looking at the past through rose-colored glasses to think that things have gone downhill. Let's put it this way: can you seriously imagine Facebook or Twitter ever being considered as the official login system for the IRS? I can't in 2012, but that was the honest-to-goodness reality of "the web we lost" from 10 years ago. At some point, in the last 10 years, it became more, not less, clear to everyone that this kind of service needed limits. There was backlash in 2002; but I believe it was much more fringe-concern than it would be now in 2012. > Yesterday, appearing at the conference, Gates reiterated the goal, saying he expects governments in many countries will find it difficult getting to "critical mass" with authentication systems they develop on their own. He said some governments may opt to use companies such as Microsoft or America Online as "the bank" that registers people for online usage.
lifeguard 14y ago
This is an excellent writeup. I think it misses an important trend in the Web's population: fewer nerds. It used to be a lot of work to get a PC with a broadband connection. Now every cell phone has cheap broadband and a suite of apps built in. The Web today is mostly populated by users who are not enthralled with the technological underpinnings that make it possible. And that is natural. The the lamentable effect is that now there is a market for accessible communication and media. And this is overwhelming the traditions of sharing and valuing anonymity on the Web. I imagine the nerd population has grown, and accelerated over time. It is just that the non-nerds are getting on-line much faster.
cletus 14y ago
I think this is an example of seeing the past through rose-coloured glasses. Yes there was Flickr but you could discover photos. Thing is, Flickr is still there and you can still use it. What's clear from this is that Flickr didn't (and doesn't) cover what is the use case for most people: sharing photos with a limited group of friends and family. Technorati? Honestly, I think this is an example of living inside a very small bubble. I'd honestly never heard of Technorati until long after it had waned. I don't agree that the monetization of the Web has degraded the value (to the user) of links on sites other than links on sites aren't the primary discovery mechanism like they used to be, which is actually a good thing (IMHO). > In the early part of this century, if you made a service that let users create or share content, the expectation was that they could easily download a full-fidelity copy of their data, or import that data into other competitive services, with no restrictions This is only true to a limited extent IMHO. The primary services for creating information 10+ years ago were email providers. Because Web-based mail was a latecomer, services like Yahoo Mail and Hotmail grew up in an era where many people used Outlook, Thunderbird and other desktop email clients so they had to support POP3 (and later IMAP) and you could use those services to export your mail. But that isn't the same as designing your services for interoperability. That was an unintended consequence. As the idea of "your mail, everywhere (you have an Internet connection)" became dominant, so did Webmail. POP3/IMAP became less important. Again, I consider this a net positive change. > In the early days of the social web, there was a broad expectation that regular people might own their own identities by having their own websites This I disagree with. Having your own domain and Website 10+ years ago was pretty unusual. Administering your own site is not easy, particularly as malware became more prevalent. This has declined because no one wants to run their own Website (or email server for that matter) because it's a crazy amount of effort for very little real gain. The only real problem I see with the present state of the Web is that Facebook wants to own all your data. It wants to be your identity. It wants to be your Internet. That's bad. It's bad for the Web and bad for consumers. But honestly, I don't see it coming to pass. Facebook is just as susceptible to disruption as so many behemoths that have come (and gone) before it. 10+ years ago Microsoft dominated your computing environment. Many couldn't envision a future that would break free of this grasp. In a few short years Microsoft has diminished their control of your computing experience in ways few could've predicted. I'll just leave this as an example of the danger of extrapolation: http://xkcd.com/605/ http://xkcd.com/605/
mattmanser 14y ago
This guy has the most awesome title ever! Director of Public Technology Incubator Expert Labs Listen to him! That's like master of the universe. On steroids. Go Anil, go!
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  I don't see the sarcasm. He is the Director of Expert Labs, a public technology incubator.
- vog 14y ago
  -1 for the ad hominem
barce 14y ago
I think Facebook benefited lots from what could be called "Net Neutrality" in 2003.
unimpressive 14y ago
:P I hate to add emoticons to this quite serious discussion, but I can't help but think that we've lost; over the course of 40 years, a lot more than the cooperation and interoperability described here. We lost operating systems that expect the user to eventually learn a programming language. We lost the expectation that a user will ever learn one. We lost the early expectations of a peer to peer Internet. We lost the hope of encryption protecting anybody beyond a few stubborn nerds and activists. We lost the idea of client programs, forcing more and more of our data into computers we don't control. Were losing the idea that the public can manage their own computers, as we have thus far seen a poor job of it.[0] Were losing our memory that these things were possible, that they ever could have been or could be. Were losing the chance to change these things for the future, should we wish to. [0]: I remember reading over 50% of computers on the Internet are in a botnet, if anyone could indulge my laziness and source this; I would be grateful.
- Mz 14y ago
  Your list makes me want to add: We lost "six degrees of separation". (Though that loss seems to run somewhat more in one direction than the other. Still, ordinary people can rub elbows these days with people they couldn't have so much as gotten an autograph from in the past.)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
ricardobeat 14y ago
I think people are missing the point. Yes, Flickr is still here and you could use it. But Flickr never really got to mobile (a major strategy failure). Do you know since when Flickr has similar functionality to Instagram? Today - they just released a new version with filters. The point is, you can't build much on top of instagram, twitter, facebook, whatever. APIs are encumbered by pricy licenses, nobody wants to collaborate. Open standards for sharing data are dying. RSS is dead. Mash-ups are dead. Everything is behind private APIs and walled gardens, the web doesn't connect everything anymore.
- icebraining 14y ago
  But when did it ever?
- acheron 14y ago
  My Google Reader account is surprised to learn that RSS is dead. How else do you keep up with updates on a bunch of different sites? (Serious question.)
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    Many sites around the web don't publish RSS anymore, and browsers have removed the default RSS readers.
  - gurkendoktor 14y ago
    That's "easy" in 2012: You Like them on Facebook (and wait for them to pay $$$ to promote their postings to get into your newsfeed).
    - jaredsohn 14y ago
      As a user, if you want to get every posting from a Facebook page, you can select to be notified on all updates. With a little work (not easy for people who don't care a lot about it) you can create an RSS feed for any Facebook page: http://sem-group.net/search-engine-optimization-blog/subscribe-to-your-favorite-facebook-page-via-rss/ http://sem-group.net/search-engine-optimization-blog/subscri... and then read that content in your RSS reader.
benwerd 14y ago
This. This is the web I care about. The principles that keep me doing what I do for a living. I love this web, and how it works. But the thing is, I love the web we have now, too. I love the interconnectedness and the fact that you don't need to be technical to find, share and create amazing stuff. You just have to have imagination and humanity. So, let's go back. Let's take the web we've got today, and let's consciously retrofit it with the plumbing we had back then. Let's take the services we all work on and stick in those APIs. Let's make it all work better together, so that the sum of all the web applications is far more than all the web applications separately. Think about the back-end services we all value: Stripe. Twilio. AWS. What unites all of them is that they're incredibly simple to develop with, and to connect into other applications. That's why Twitter succeeded in the beginning, too: because its API was simple enough that people could build apps for the nascent mobile app ecosystem. This is good for all of our products, as well as for the web's health as a platform. It's not hard. That's the beauty of it: all these APIs and standards are simple to build and simple to use. That's why they survived. All that has to happen is an understanding that being closed is not a better way to serve your users or run a tech business.
aaron695 14y ago
Sorry but I think this article is totally wrong. Tags for instance are a classic example of something people raved about, thought would work than were a total failure. It was found filenames actually gave more useful information to the user than tags. (PS if it's not obvious hashtags are not tags)
joey_muller 14y ago
I find myself disagreeing with my cofounder on things like giving the user more and more control. It adds too much complexity. Providing the basic, minimum requirements will be sufficient for 99% of our customers. I'd rather focus on them than the small sliver of folks who'd want that extra control.
yo-mf 14y ago
I think Anil missed something in his allusion to AOL. There was an Internet before AOL that a few of us were actively using. There was a thing called “the web” that some folks were toying with while the masses toiled in Prodigy and AOL. Were those services bad or evil? No, but they accelerated the onramping of the next generation of Internet adopters that then quickly moved to the wild and free Web. With the development of the web came all sorts innovation and novel services that brought order to the often chaotic web. We are on the same onramp now as we were in the late 90’s. Facebook, Twitter, et. al. are just another stopping point to whatever comes next. We lost some things along the way, we abandoned some of our anonymity, and in some ways our freedom and experience suffered. But we have also gained tremendously in the decade since. We have smartphones with apps that guide us to cool places and discovery new experiences. We have apps that make our shopping experiences easier and cheaper. We have apps that let us express ourselves in sounds, pictures, videos, text, and to share those expressions of ourselves to the world in a few clicks. We can find any number of experts and sites that offer assistance without flipping open phonebooks or blindly Googling the world. Yes, we lost something. I also agree that we have forgotten some of the earlier values that made the web such a joy. We got enticed by free apps and gaudy user experiences. However, there will be a backlash someday and the next generation of Internet users will jump outside of these walled gardens to take control of their own online identity.
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nnq 14y ago
We moved in the wrong direction a bit, but still, we moved further and that's all that matters! "Average people" "wanted"/needed the web to become like this because they want "everything in one package" kind of deals and that's the only way they could swallow it... but they've swallowed the "red pill" even if was hidden inside a poisoned cheeseburger, so they're on the right track now. And we had to move in this direction to get the "average Joes" and your grandma on board. Facebook pushes everything in the wrong direction IMHO, from privacy and censorship and content monetarization to technology (PHP, Hiphop, C++, hackathlons?! what new "toxic" technologies and ideas will they support or "invent" next?), but they and those like them brought "the people" online. But now that they've survived the poisoned cheeseburgers and digested them, it's time to reap the benefits of the red pill. Now that we've taken the detour necessary to get the non-techies on board, it's time to steer the ship in the right direction!
jasonkester 14y ago
Anybody remember meaningful URLs? As in, site.com/view?postid=1234 or site.com/view?userid=1234. Back when "the URL [was] the new command line" and you could easily discover all the content from a site and rework it as you liked. You could tell how many posts a blog had or how many users a site had by pluggin in a few numbers and doing a binary search. No need for an API or a feed. Just look at the URL and you could see what you needed to mess with. Then SEO happened and URLs started looking like site.com/10-shocking-secrets-about-cat-odor-control-devices, which you can't really do anything with except shorten them to shrt.nr/Ssk and make them even less meaningful. It always surprised me that nobody complained when we started losing that.
- sellandb 14y ago
  I think that is an interesting point. I have always found "site.com/view?postid=1234" feels lazy vs. the alternative "site.com/posts/article-title". While there is a relatively small group of people who might poke around with the URL parameters regularly, the vast majority of internet users IMHO would prefer to see a URL with some indication about what is on the other side. That's not to say we can't have both either, just that you tend to only need one or the other.
- Intermernet 14y ago
  I believe that TBL not only complains about it, but also warned that it could happen many years ago. It's annoying that not many people listen to him... perhaps it's because he's so polite and civil all the time.
- Avshalom 14y ago
  on the other hand site.com/description combined with the habit of writing urls in english has allowed me to navigate a tremendous number of websites in languages I don't speak.
mrb 14y ago
I am suprised nobody mentioned it already, but the Google Wave Protocol [0] was exactly about bringing some of these properties back to the Web: easily discoverable information, real-time data feeds, decentralization of content, running your own "site", etc. The author said "we've abandoned [these] core values", and this is precisely why Wave failed: people don't care enough about these values. [0] http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2009/05/hello-world-meet-google-wave.html http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2009/05/hello-world-meet-goog...
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meerita 14y ago
I Think Anil went too melancholic with this article. It doesn't give us any clue of the bad things, he just feels the current web isn't right, to my point of view, "the past was better" argument always fails, because in the past there were more chaos than current one, just look how bad was the web 10 years ago with crappy websites coded with HTML and gifs, search engines that didn't do a good job, no webservices at all functioning properly. Adapt of die.
chris_wot 14y ago
"...They're amazing achievements, from a pure software perspective. But they're based on a few assumptions that aren't necessarily correct. The primary fallacy that underpins many of their mistakes is that user flexibility and control necessarily lead to a user experience complexity that hurts growth. And the second, more grave fallacy, is the thinking that exerting extreme control over users is the best way to maximize the profitability and sustainability of their networks." Oh my gosh. This is the GNOME project!
papsosouid 14y ago
>we've abandoned core values that used to be fundamental to the web world No, we didn't. They did. The users of this new non-web never saw the old web, they weren't online then. People seem to forget that the entire internet connected population back then is like 5% of the current internet connected population. Those of us who liked the web are still here, we're just outnumbered.
return0 14y ago
I would advocate it's a good thing that we have closed social platforms. Most of the content they generate does not leak to search engines and that's a good thing, because most of it is trivialities. Imagine a researcher looking for medical information having to filter through all kinds of anecdotal nonsense to find true scientific studies. It's like browsing youtube and expecting to randomly bump on gems. IMHO, most social stuff is of little value. People still publish in traditional platforms the important bits [with the exception of closed scientific journals; but that's a different issue].
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rastem 14y ago
I find it humorous that the comments on that site are only enabled if you login with Facebook, Yahoo, AOL, or Hotmail.
azio 14y ago
We also lost Flash. Screw you Steve Jobs for killing it. I remember the days when futuristic sites were built using it with all the advance animation and stuff that nobody is doing these days.
dimitar 14y ago
I really miss old-fashioned forums. I know you can point out that they weren't that different from this site or that facebook groups are not that different, but it doesn't feel the same. I hope they enjoy a Renaissance someday soon and cohabitate with 'social media'. Maybe a new, shiny framework or CMS for making them?

636 points by kzasada 14y ago

I think most of the frameworks, libraries, and tools we use to build these new services can do an awful lot more to make this kind of thing easier. I actually suspect we'll enter a new age of programming soon, where a lot of the cruft and boilerplate of managing filesystems and metadata around your data (from databases) will be handled automatically, making this kind of thing much, much easier. Who knows, though. I'm optimistic.

krakensden 14y ago

I don't understand why he thinks the pendulum is swinging back. Is there any particular evidence of that?

lubujackson 14y ago
I would say the first sign is that the sheen has worn off and people are starting to notice some deep-set flaws in the services they use. Fewer people think Google is good and never "evil", Macs don't always "just work", and Facebook continues to have "privacy issues".
rheide 14y ago
Um, did you read the article? There's tons of good points in there. Some of them might be a bit exaggerated though .(like the oembed one, was that ever popular?)
- anildash 14y ago
  Twitter's original "sidebar" implementation of inline media used OEmbed, actually.
gojomo 14y ago
You're right, he doesn't specifically give support for the idea idea we're recovering these values and capabilities. But I think he's alluding to people, as they gain experience and perspective, becoming aware of the limits of proprietary platforms, and investigating (or rediscovering) other possibilities.
- mhurron 14y ago
  I'm honestly not seeing that people are giving up Facebook or the like because of any limits imposed by Facebook. The worst I saw was some of the more technical minded go to Google+, which is basically the same thing all over again.
gkelly 14y ago
I don't think it's swinging back, but I would like to hear his reasons for claiming it is.

smacktoward 14y ago

I agree with Anil 110% that the Web he's talking about was, in many, many ways, a Better Web than the one we have today. The problem is that it's worse than the one we have today in the only way that most people care about: it's harder. To participate, it expected you to know how to do a bunch of things that seem trivial to tech folks but frighteningly complicated to everybody else. You had to buy a domain. You had to choose a Web host. You had to know how to connect the domain to the Web host. You had to choose the right software to do what you wanted to do. You had to install that software, and configure it properly. The reason hosted services became popular is because they let you skip all that stuff. You fill out a form and you're up and running. Someone else worries about all that other stuff for you. This makes those services accessible in a way that the Web of 2000 was not. Of course, to get that accessibility, the hosted services make you give up a lot of things. You lose access to your raw data. You lose your privacy. You lose the ability to change vendors if the one you're on turns evil. But to non-technical people, those losses aren't obvious. They don't understand what they've lost until losing those things turns around and bites them. It's like DRM: people don't understand why DRM-encumbered music downloads are bad until their iPod dies and they want to move their iTunes-bought music to an Android phone. "What do you mean I can't do that?" is what you hear the moment the penny drops. But before then, they don't understand the risk. This is what will need to be overcome to make tomorrow's Web like yesterday's was: it'll need to be as easy for people to use as today's is, or you'll need to educate the entire world about why they should put up with it not being that easy. Otherwise people will keep on blindly stumbling into the heavily-advertised walled gardens, not realizing that's what they're doing until the day they decide they want to leave, and can't.

majormajor 14y ago
I strongly prefer the web of today to the web of ten years ago because those barriers to entry prevented most people from doing all the cool stuff Anil talks about. So it was possible to have all those better connections, but it didn't happen much. One way or another, services would've arised that would've tied it all together for the non-technical. I don't think we lost anything more than a potential to have a "better web" that never would've been realized anyway. (And many of those things are still possible, just even less worth the effort now that there are entrenched networks.)

untog 14y ago

Funny that he says all this then has a Facebook comments box at the bottom of the page. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that IMO- people are far more likely to have their real names on Facebook, and thus leave sensible comments rather than total drivel. But it makes a point that he doesn't include in the article- sometimes these centralised information stores can be useful.

anildash 14y ago
I think I did mention that in the piece, but I deliberately keep the Facebook comments even on articles where I'm critical of Facebook to show that I'm not some extremist zealot. I'm just a normal person who happens to love the web.
- chime 14y ago
  Offtopic: Can you please change your link color? It looks like every link is already visited and I know for fact I did not visit every single one.
- graue 14y ago
  Why use Facebook comments, though? I thought what you wrote here was great, but the choice of commenting system seems to conflict with the (excellent) points you're making. Using a built-in commenting system like that of WordPress would be much more in line with The Web That Was. Those types of comment systems are still common, so using them would hardly make you a zealot. Until I came here, I didn't realize your blog had a comments section, because I block Facebook comments with Ghostery. Not worth it to me as a privacy-vs-content tradeoff. I do allow Disqus, which identifies me by email and is therefore much more in the spirit of services like Technorati.
- jamesmcn 14y ago
  I'd like to meet someone who thinks you are an extremist zealot. Wait, no I don't. I really don't.
- marssaxman 14y ago
  It does guarantee that people like me can't comment on your pages, though, which would not be true if you had a normal self-hosted comment system.

joebadmo 14y ago

After all that, I can't comment on the piece with OpenID or any other service I actually use. Facebook, Yahoo, Hotmail, or AOL? Really? The way out of this mess is for people with loud voices to support efforts like Tent.io, open, decentralized, standardized protocols that don't lock us into corporate silos: https://tent.io/ https://tent.io/

10098 14y ago

Maybe I have changed, or maybe the Internet has changed, but I used to meet people on the internet. I used to make friends online, and some of these friendships gradually mutated into "offline" friendships. There used to be message boards, IRC and web chats where people would talk, form groups, become friends or enemies. People used to have blogs on livejournal or other services, some were trying to create content, write interesting posts. I met a lot of new people through that medium too. But now everybody is locked inside the narrow bubble of their own social network. People don't become friends on facebook - they usually "friend" their IRL friends. You can't fit a good meaningful post into a tweet. And you can't have a normal discussion without sane comment threads like on livejournal - and I haven't seen that on any of the popular social sites. That's also a part of the web we lost.

hmexx 14y ago
My feelings mirror yours... I'm actually building a product that I hope can help re-introduce some spontaneity in people's online interactions, as they journey through the web. Still very early stage though: http://getmetaweb.com http://getmetaweb.com Here's a 60 second concept video: http://vimeo.com/52398982 http://vimeo.com/52398982
- fudged71 14y ago
  Neat idea. I love the video. How would you recommend creating a video like this? Just get someone good with after effects?
  - hmexx 14y ago
    Yep.. and if you can't find anyone, you can hire someone from eastern europe to do it for under $1K. I've always had horrible results outsourcing dev work, but outsourcing design seems to work just fine.
- ep103 14y ago
  This seems really cool. How is development coming?

aes256 14y ago

Looks like the author is wearing rose-tinted glasses to me. While much of the observations may be true, the web is still a far richer and more valuable resource than it was five or ten years ago.

IheartApplesDix 14y ago
I don't find this to be true, but that's perhaps I'm not far richer than I was 5 or 10 years ago. Somewhere along the way, accessibility to truth was thrown under the bus for clickbait and walled gardens.
- marcioaguiar 14y ago
  Accessibility to truth? Tell me more about how you used to access the truth in 1998.
  - 4ad 14y ago
    The SNR was way higher in 1998.
  - yread 14y ago
    You can read all about it here: http://www.searchlores.org/indexo.htm http://www.searchlores.org/indexo.htm
  - IheartApplesDix 14y ago
    Tell me more about how 1998 is your arbitrary yardstick.
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agentultra 14y ago

I think it's rather funny when people talk about the, "social web." Before the social graph, technorati, and flickr there were newsgroups, email lists, HTTP, IRC, etc. The Internet itself is a social tool. Perhaps the term refers to some epoch of which I am not aware but it seems to me from a big-picture perspective that we've only narrowly improved the experience since Eternal September. The "walled garden" networks will always strive to find their value in lowering the barrier to entry for new participants on the web. Facebook makes it super easy to share your photos with your family and friends and passively update them on the minutiae of your life. Twitter does the same thing to large degree in a more public fashion. Tumblr, Instagram, Pinterest... all of the same zeitgeist: user experience. But the cognoscenti are certainly aware that the web is the sum of its parts and walled gardens are antithesis to participation within its ecosystem. However the problem is and has always been participation: there is no single sign-in, no simple user experience, no common parlance for the mainstream to absorb. We got about as far as blogs and stopped there once MySpace, Facebook, et al took over. I'd prefer a return to the roots but I think we'll need software and services that provide a better user experience and product-based focus rather than the service-oriented approach that has become popular.

kjackson2012 14y ago
I think it's different now than before because almost everyone is comfortable with the idea of communicating over the Internet. I used to IRC and MUD and the types of people that engaged in those activities were, for lack of a better term, more nerdy, like me. Back in the 1990s, people still weren't used to sitting in front of their computers all day long, because there largely wasn't anything to do with a non-networked computer. You could play games, or you could be writing an essay or a report, but there wasn't much else that could keep you engaged for hours upon hours, unlike today. People used to spend more of their time talking on the phone or watching TV, or socializing. But having computers online all the time has turned it truly into a "social web".

vividmind 14y ago

Facebook is web's McDonalds.

djbender 14y ago
The new AOL.
- barce 14y ago
  This proves the quote from "Gladiator," that what we do echoes through eternity.
- meej 14y ago
  Indeed, the first thought I had upon reading Dash's article was, "Kottke was right". http://kottke.org/07/06/facebook-is-the-new-aol http://kottke.org/07/06/facebook-is-the-new-aol

kamjam 14y ago

Meh, I disagree with a lot of that. You speak as if the internet ONLY consists of social now. Your points are nostalgic and looking at the past through rose tinted glasses IMO. Five years ago, most social photos were uploaded to Flickr You can still do this. People choose not to. I don't want strangers viewing my social pictures, esp if I had kids. These are private moments to be shared with my friends. Ten years ago, you could allow people to post links on your site You still can, it's your site. If you decide to monetize your site and display AdWords then that's your call. You don't have to be a sheep and follow what everyone else is doing. In 2003, if you introduced a single-sign-in service that was run by a company... Don't use them and create an account. No one is forcing you to use them, but for some of us (me) it's just easier to link several sign-ins together with my Google account. These are generally sites I trust. If I don't trust them then I'll use a disposable email account anyway to register. If the "average man" on the street doesn't know better then that's his/her problem, it's the same basic principle as identity theft and people guard against that. It's time they did the same online. In the early days of the social web, there was a broad expectation that regular people might own their own identities by having their own websites Really? A few people maybe, but most non-tech people I know really couldn't give 2 hoots. Wordpress and all the blogging sites have made a lot more people I know open their "own" sites than would have been owning a domain name and all the other hosting and "headache" that goes with it. Five years ago, if you wanted to show content from one site or app on your own site or app... Yes, agree it is bad, but that's business. The same thing happens in the real world, just because it is online the principles of business do not disappear and unfortunately not everyone is that tech-savvy and some of those people who pumped millions into a business may not "get" the web like you. I don't think we have "lost" any of these. People have just decided to move on as the technology has advanced. The internet is a lot more open and a lot more accessible to many more people than it has ever been. As a developer I may care about the above (I don't) but as a regular joe, I don't think I would waste 2 seconds, no matter how long I have been using the web.

haldean 14y ago
The point about links is that other people can profit by posting links on your site. Before Ad(Words|Sense), you could freely allow people to post links in comments (without having to worry about nofollow or anything) because people would only profit from those links if what they linked to was relevant/interesting. Now just the act of following a link can mean a few pennies in someone's pocket, so allowing links to be posted to your site is a quick way to get seriously astroturfed.

fleitz 14y ago

The web we lost is still there, it's just that's it's just as accessible as it was 10 years. We post photos to Facebook not because of the technical superiority but because our friends and family can see them. You can still put your photos on flickr where no one you know will ever see them.

gfodor 14y ago

Wow. Microsoft Passport. I haven't thought about that in years, and recalling how the tech world recoiled in horror then for things we have eagerly embraced now is illuminating.

quasistar 14y ago

Just a few reasons today's Web trumps anything from the 'Technorati' (seriously?) era: Open API's that reply in JSON, Cloud VPS's at $0.02 per hour, 10 Gb ethernet, 54 Mb fiber in my house, multicore computers in everyones pocket, GPS at everyones fingertips, web frameworks like Sinatra (yes, it took more than three lines of code and two bash commands to publish 'Hello World!' to the web back then), caching solutions like Redis, data crunching pipelines like hadoop, payment processing like Dwolla...need I go on? There will always be folks hankering for the glory days of alt.religion.kibology and compuserve. Ignore them. Create something game-changing instead.

lifeguard 14y ago
We didn't have swarms of zombie windows PCs to be DDOS'd by back then, either. That was a plus. AJAX is awesome, but I hate that every site uses it 'just because' and my browser in now hosting applications with persistent network connections instead of displaying a document.
4ad 14y ago
Let's take an opposing view, shall we? > Open API's that reply in JSON The serialization format doesn't matter. What matter is that we have way more APIs, all different, with inconsistent semantics and non-orthogonal feature sets than the non-web APIs of 15 years ago. On average the people designing these APIs are less competent than the people from 15 years ago creating more headaches for the people that are competent. > Cloud VPS's at $0.02 per hour Cloud virtualization is expensive, not cheap. It has its merits, the overhead for elasticity is much less than it used to be, but this matters only at scale. At small scale you get unpredictable performance and terrible I/O. > 10 Gb ethernet No such thing. Even on servers its rare. I had 1 GigE on my laptop 10 years ago. I can't get a better NIC on any laptop today. The world is actually worse than it used to be because back in the day I didn't need to worry about saturating Ethernet. Now I do. > 54 Mb fiber in my house I used to be able to buy a symmetric link with a fixed IP address and reverse DNS. Now fixed IP is a rarity, symmetric links are usually not available for non-business customers and when they are, they cost more than 15 years ago. Reverse DNS? Ha ha. > multicore computers in everyones pocket I don't need a multicore computer in my pocket. I need a phone with good signal and a battery that lasts. They don't make them anymore. Even if I need a computer, smartphones barely qualify. iOS is locked and Android requires me to do a type of programming I don't like. I'm used to computers that I can program the way I want, not being bound by some framework. > GPS at everyones fingertips I don't care. I never used a GPS, never needed one. What I've seen is that now people get lost when their GPS breaks. I view that as a failure of civilisation. > web frameworks I'd probably break some Hacker News scalability limit if I started writing about this one. > caching solutions like Redis Redis is required because the other pieces of the stack suck. It's a remedy, hardly a cure from an architectural point of view. The broad architectures around us are more unsuitable and more abused than they used to be. It's actually worse than that. Unix and Plan 9 have thought us that's it is better to model behaviour through a single bounded interface rather than a growing set of specialised interfaces. This allows composition, protects against lock in, and allows synthetic components. Now there's a Redis API, there's a Cassandra API, there's a MongoDB API, there's a Zookeeper API, there's a Riak API, there's a RabbitMQ API. Everything has an API. A different API. Not only this destroys composability, it also hinders experimentation, increases the technical debt, makes the cost of transition higher, and bounds the writer into using a limited set of tools. > data crunching pipelines like hadoop Hadoop is a a player in an extremely niche field. I don't think it's relevant to talk about a thing as specific as hadoop in the context of something as general as the cultural and pragmatical shifts in the Internet. However, if you brought in the discussion, Hadoop is awful. Companies deploy it because it's trendy, not because they need it, introducing complexity, additional dependencies and a whole new set of problems to solve. Hadoop also dropped the bar on what is considered simple and sane deployment causing new software to be just as awful to deploy when they wouldn't really need to. > payment processing like Dwolla No idea what this is, but payments on the Internet are worse then they used to be. Sure, now you can buy anything, but it's harder to pay. Paypal periodically asks me for IDs and freezes my accounts just because I happen to move between two countries, there are many more types of cards, some work on the Internet better than others, some banks work on the Internet better than others. Merchants support only limited and disjoint set of payment options forcing me to have multiple types of credit cards and various types of accounts I don't want or care about. Back in the day, you had a credit card, it worked. Now I can buy groceries and shoes on the Internet. Back in the day I could not, but I didn't want to. I wanted to buy various types of equipement, and that I could. > There will always be folks hankering for the glory days of alt.religion.kibology and compuserve. Ignore them. The article was not about the olde glory days, it was about a fundamental shift in the way people and machines interact on the Internet. A transition from protocols to services. I think this is a worthy thing to discuss and your dismissive, condescending post is not warranted.

saurik 14y ago

There is an example in there of how creating a single sign-on service in 2005 being "described as introducing a tracking system worthy of the PATRIOT act". That was years after this kind of thing was considered a problem, however, and it was somewhat rightfully so, and I believe the real story is that things actually got "better" as we came to understand these services more. I am not certain things actually got worse over the last ten years: in some ways they really got better. Going back to 2002, Microsoft had been working on "Hailstorm", which was a very poorly chosen name for something that people rapidly became afraid of ;P. It was later renamed to "My Services", but it included Microsoft Passport (yes, this is mentioned in the article, but I don't think it is given enough weight), a single sign-on service provider that Microsoft was encouraging other websites to use. It would provide details about you, including your e-mail address, to the sites you connected with. I had remembered a bunch of people being angry about it, so I did a Google search for "Microsoft Password mark of the beast", and came across an article written at the time in some random magazine called "Microsoft's Passport to Controversy -- Depending on whom you ask, Passport is either a useful consumer convenience or the mark of the beast". http://business.highbeam.com/787/article-1G1-83378739/microsoft-passport-controversy-depending-whom-you-ask http://business.highbeam.com/787/article-1G1-83378739/micros... However, it should be noted that one of the fears at the time was not "man, vague centralization is bad", it was "omg, Microsoft doesn't just want this service to take over the web... they want this service to take over the world". Now, of course, you read me saying that, and think "ugh, stop with the rhetoric: that's just an example of people freaking out about something we find common-place; that's what the article is about: did you read it? ;P". But... it was actually for real. Microsoft was lobbying to make Microsoft Passport be the new US National ID system, and it wasn't just a pie-in-the-sky goal... they were lobbying to make it happen, had the ears of the right people, and were making serious progress on it. For reference, there was an article written about the situation in the Seattle Times with the title "Feds might use Microsoft product for online ID". > Forget about a national ID card. Instead, the federal government might use Microsoft's Passport technology to verify the online identity of America's citizens, federal employees and businesses, according to the White House technology czar. > On Sept. 30, the government plans to begin testing Web sites where businesses can pay taxes and citizens can learn about benefits and social services. It's also exploring how to verify the identity of users so the sites can share private information. http://web-beta.archive.org/web/20020802161525/http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134438173_passport18.html http://web-beta.archive.org/web/20020802161525/http://seattl... I thereby feel the need to note that, even as late as 2005, if you were going to start talking about building the world's next best "single sign-on" provider, this is what you were being mentally compared with: yes, the one service mentioned (TypeKey) ended up having "much more restrictive terms of service about sharing data", but it is looking at the past through rose-colored glasses to think that things have gone downhill. Let's put it this way: can you seriously imagine Facebook or Twitter ever being considered as the official login system for the IRS? I can't in 2012, but that was the honest-to-goodness reality of "the web we lost" from 10 years ago. At some point, in the last 10 years, it became more, not less, clear to everyone that this kind of service needed limits. There was backlash in 2002; but I believe it was much more fringe-concern than it would be now in 2012. > Yesterday, appearing at the conference, Gates reiterated the goal, saying he expects governments in many countries will find it difficult getting to "critical mass" with authentication systems they develop on their own. He said some governments may opt to use companies such as Microsoft or America Online as "the bank" that registers people for online usage.

lifeguard 14y ago

This is an excellent writeup. I think it misses an important trend in the Web's population: fewer nerds. It used to be a lot of work to get a PC with a broadband connection. Now every cell phone has cheap broadband and a suite of apps built in. The Web today is mostly populated by users who are not enthralled with the technological underpinnings that make it possible. And that is natural. The the lamentable effect is that now there is a market for accessible communication and media. And this is overwhelming the traditions of sharing and valuing anonymity on the Web. I imagine the nerd population has grown, and accelerated over time. It is just that the non-nerds are getting on-line much faster.

cletus 14y ago

I think this is an example of seeing the past through rose-coloured glasses. Yes there was Flickr but you could discover photos. Thing is, Flickr is still there and you can still use it. What's clear from this is that Flickr didn't (and doesn't) cover what is the use case for most people: sharing photos with a limited group of friends and family. Technorati? Honestly, I think this is an example of living inside a very small bubble. I'd honestly never heard of Technorati until long after it had waned. I don't agree that the monetization of the Web has degraded the value (to the user) of links on sites other than links on sites aren't the primary discovery mechanism like they used to be, which is actually a good thing (IMHO). > In the early part of this century, if you made a service that let users create or share content, the expectation was that they could easily download a full-fidelity copy of their data, or import that data into other competitive services, with no restrictions This is only true to a limited extent IMHO. The primary services for creating information 10+ years ago were email providers. Because Web-based mail was a latecomer, services like Yahoo Mail and Hotmail grew up in an era where many people used Outlook, Thunderbird and other desktop email clients so they had to support POP3 (and later IMAP) and you could use those services to export your mail. But that isn't the same as designing your services for interoperability. That was an unintended consequence. As the idea of "your mail, everywhere (you have an Internet connection)" became dominant, so did Webmail. POP3/IMAP became less important. Again, I consider this a net positive change. > In the early days of the social web, there was a broad expectation that regular people might own their own identities by having their own websites This I disagree with. Having your own domain and Website 10+ years ago was pretty unusual. Administering your own site is not easy, particularly as malware became more prevalent. This has declined because no one wants to run their own Website (or email server for that matter) because it's a crazy amount of effort for very little real gain. The only real problem I see with the present state of the Web is that Facebook wants to own all your data. It wants to be your identity. It wants to be your Internet. That's bad. It's bad for the Web and bad for consumers. But honestly, I don't see it coming to pass. Facebook is just as susceptible to disruption as so many behemoths that have come (and gone) before it. 10+ years ago Microsoft dominated your computing environment. Many couldn't envision a future that would break free of this grasp. In a few short years Microsoft has diminished their control of your computing experience in ways few could've predicted. I'll just leave this as an example of the danger of extrapolation: http://xkcd.com/605/ http://xkcd.com/605/

mattmanser 14y ago

This guy has the most awesome title ever! Director of Public Technology Incubator Expert Labs Listen to him! That's like master of the universe. On steroids. Go Anil, go!

ricardobeat 14y ago
I don't see the sarcasm. He is the Director of Expert Labs, a public technology incubator.
vog 14y ago
-1 for the ad hominem

barce 14y ago

I think Facebook benefited lots from what could be called "Net Neutrality" in 2003.

unimpressive 14y ago

:P I hate to add emoticons to this quite serious discussion, but I can't help but think that we've lost; over the course of 40 years, a lot more than the cooperation and interoperability described here. We lost operating systems that expect the user to eventually learn a programming language. We lost the expectation that a user will ever learn one. We lost the early expectations of a peer to peer Internet. We lost the hope of encryption protecting anybody beyond a few stubborn nerds and activists. We lost the idea of client programs, forcing more and more of our data into computers we don't control. Were losing the idea that the public can manage their own computers, as we have thus far seen a poor job of it.[0] Were losing our memory that these things were possible, that they ever could have been or could be. Were losing the chance to change these things for the future, should we wish to. [0]: I remember reading over 50% of computers on the Internet are in a botnet, if anyone could indulge my laziness and source this; I would be grateful.

Mz 14y ago
Your list makes me want to add: We lost "six degrees of separation". (Though that loss seems to run somewhat more in one direction than the other. Still, ordinary people can rub elbows these days with people they couldn't have so much as gotten an autograph from in the past.)
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ricardobeat 14y ago

I think people are missing the point. Yes, Flickr is still here and you could use it. But Flickr never really got to mobile (a major strategy failure). Do you know since when Flickr has similar functionality to Instagram? Today - they just released a new version with filters. The point is, you can't build much on top of instagram, twitter, facebook, whatever. APIs are encumbered by pricy licenses, nobody wants to collaborate. Open standards for sharing data are dying. RSS is dead. Mash-ups are dead. Everything is behind private APIs and walled gardens, the web doesn't connect everything anymore.

icebraining 14y ago
But when did it ever?
acheron 14y ago
My Google Reader account is surprised to learn that RSS is dead. How else do you keep up with updates on a bunch of different sites? (Serious question.)
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  Many sites around the web don't publish RSS anymore, and browsers have removed the default RSS readers.
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  That's "easy" in 2012: You Like them on Facebook (and wait for them to pay $$$ to promote their postings to get into your newsfeed).
  - jaredsohn 14y ago
    As a user, if you want to get every posting from a Facebook page, you can select to be notified on all updates. With a little work (not easy for people who don't care a lot about it) you can create an RSS feed for any Facebook page: http://sem-group.net/search-engine-optimization-blog/subscribe-to-your-favorite-facebook-page-via-rss/ http://sem-group.net/search-engine-optimization-blog/subscri... and then read that content in your RSS reader.

benwerd 14y ago

This. This is the web I care about. The principles that keep me doing what I do for a living. I love this web, and how it works. But the thing is, I love the web we have now, too. I love the interconnectedness and the fact that you don't need to be technical to find, share and create amazing stuff. You just have to have imagination and humanity. So, let's go back. Let's take the web we've got today, and let's consciously retrofit it with the plumbing we had back then. Let's take the services we all work on and stick in those APIs. Let's make it all work better together, so that the sum of all the web applications is far more than all the web applications separately. Think about the back-end services we all value: Stripe. Twilio. AWS. What unites all of them is that they're incredibly simple to develop with, and to connect into other applications. That's why Twitter succeeded in the beginning, too: because its API was simple enough that people could build apps for the nascent mobile app ecosystem. This is good for all of our products, as well as for the web's health as a platform. It's not hard. That's the beauty of it: all these APIs and standards are simple to build and simple to use. That's why they survived. All that has to happen is an understanding that being closed is not a better way to serve your users or run a tech business.

aaron695 14y ago

Sorry but I think this article is totally wrong. Tags for instance are a classic example of something people raved about, thought would work than were a total failure. It was found filenames actually gave more useful information to the user than tags. (PS if it's not obvious hashtags are not tags)

joey_muller 14y ago

I find myself disagreeing with my cofounder on things like giving the user more and more control. It adds too much complexity. Providing the basic, minimum requirements will be sufficient for 99% of our customers. I'd rather focus on them than the small sliver of folks who'd want that extra control.

yo-mf 14y ago

I think Anil missed something in his allusion to AOL. There was an Internet before AOL that a few of us were actively using. There was a thing called “the web” that some folks were toying with while the masses toiled in Prodigy and AOL. Were those services bad or evil? No, but they accelerated the onramping of the next generation of Internet adopters that then quickly moved to the wild and free Web. With the development of the web came all sorts innovation and novel services that brought order to the often chaotic web. We are on the same onramp now as we were in the late 90’s. Facebook, Twitter, et. al. are just another stopping point to whatever comes next. We lost some things along the way, we abandoned some of our anonymity, and in some ways our freedom and experience suffered. But we have also gained tremendously in the decade since. We have smartphones with apps that guide us to cool places and discovery new experiences. We have apps that make our shopping experiences easier and cheaper. We have apps that let us express ourselves in sounds, pictures, videos, text, and to share those expressions of ourselves to the world in a few clicks. We can find any number of experts and sites that offer assistance without flipping open phonebooks or blindly Googling the world. Yes, we lost something. I also agree that we have forgotten some of the earlier values that made the web such a joy. We got enticed by free apps and gaudy user experiences. However, there will be a backlash someday and the next generation of Internet users will jump outside of these walled gardens to take control of their own online identity.

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nnq 14y ago

We moved in the wrong direction a bit, but still, we moved further and that's all that matters! "Average people" "wanted"/needed the web to become like this because they want "everything in one package" kind of deals and that's the only way they could swallow it... but they've swallowed the "red pill" even if was hidden inside a poisoned cheeseburger, so they're on the right track now. And we had to move in this direction to get the "average Joes" and your grandma on board. Facebook pushes everything in the wrong direction IMHO, from privacy and censorship and content monetarization to technology (PHP, Hiphop, C++, hackathlons?! what new "toxic" technologies and ideas will they support or "invent" next?), but they and those like them brought "the people" online. But now that they've survived the poisoned cheeseburgers and digested them, it's time to reap the benefits of the red pill. Now that we've taken the detour necessary to get the non-techies on board, it's time to steer the ship in the right direction!

jasonkester 14y ago

Anybody remember meaningful URLs? As in, site.com/view?postid=1234 or site.com/view?userid=1234. Back when "the URL [was] the new command line" and you could easily discover all the content from a site and rework it as you liked. You could tell how many posts a blog had or how many users a site had by pluggin in a few numbers and doing a binary search. No need for an API or a feed. Just look at the URL and you could see what you needed to mess with. Then SEO happened and URLs started looking like site.com/10-shocking-secrets-about-cat-odor-control-devices, which you can't really do anything with except shorten them to shrt.nr/Ssk and make them even less meaningful. It always surprised me that nobody complained when we started losing that.

sellandb 14y ago
I think that is an interesting point. I have always found "site.com/view?postid=1234" feels lazy vs. the alternative "site.com/posts/article-title". While there is a relatively small group of people who might poke around with the URL parameters regularly, the vast majority of internet users IMHO would prefer to see a URL with some indication about what is on the other side. That's not to say we can't have both either, just that you tend to only need one or the other.
Intermernet 14y ago
I believe that TBL not only complains about it, but also warned that it could happen many years ago. It's annoying that not many people listen to him... perhaps it's because he's so polite and civil all the time.
Avshalom 14y ago
on the other hand site.com/description combined with the habit of writing urls in english has allowed me to navigate a tremendous number of websites in languages I don't speak.

mrb 14y ago

I am suprised nobody mentioned it already, but the Google Wave Protocol [0] was exactly about bringing some of these properties back to the Web: easily discoverable information, real-time data feeds, decentralization of content, running your own "site", etc. The author said "we've abandoned [these] core values", and this is precisely why Wave failed: people don't care enough about these values. [0] http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2009/05/hello-world-meet-google-wave.html http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2009/05/hello-world-meet-goog...

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meerita 14y ago

I Think Anil went too melancholic with this article. It doesn't give us any clue of the bad things, he just feels the current web isn't right, to my point of view, "the past was better" argument always fails, because in the past there were more chaos than current one, just look how bad was the web 10 years ago with crappy websites coded with HTML and gifs, search engines that didn't do a good job, no webservices at all functioning properly. Adapt of die.

chris_wot 14y ago

"...They're amazing achievements, from a pure software perspective. But they're based on a few assumptions that aren't necessarily correct. The primary fallacy that underpins many of their mistakes is that user flexibility and control necessarily lead to a user experience complexity that hurts growth. And the second, more grave fallacy, is the thinking that exerting extreme control over users is the best way to maximize the profitability and sustainability of their networks." Oh my gosh. This is the GNOME project!

papsosouid 14y ago

>we've abandoned core values that used to be fundamental to the web world No, we didn't. They did. The users of this new non-web never saw the old web, they weren't online then. People seem to forget that the entire internet connected population back then is like 5% of the current internet connected population. Those of us who liked the web are still here, we're just outnumbered.

return0 14y ago

I would advocate it's a good thing that we have closed social platforms. Most of the content they generate does not leak to search engines and that's a good thing, because most of it is trivialities. Imagine a researcher looking for medical information having to filter through all kinds of anecdotal nonsense to find true scientific studies. It's like browsing youtube and expecting to randomly bump on gems. IMHO, most social stuff is of little value. People still publish in traditional platforms the important bits [with the exception of closed scientific journals; but that's a different issue].

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rastem 14y ago

I find it humorous that the comments on that site are only enabled if you login with Facebook, Yahoo, AOL, or Hotmail.

azio 14y ago

We also lost Flash. Screw you Steve Jobs for killing it. I remember the days when futuristic sites were built using it with all the advance animation and stuff that nobody is doing these days.

dimitar 14y ago

I really miss old-fashioned forums. I know you can point out that they weren't that different from this site or that facebook groups are not that different, but it doesn't feel the same. I hope they enjoy a Renaissance someday soon and cohabitate with 'social media'. Maybe a new, shiny framework or CMS for making them?