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Thanks for the info about the AUMF. I'll definitely have to look into that further. Notice that the 2001 AUMF, which was written in a panic, authorizes arb

by willurd 14y ago

Thanks for the info about the AUMF. I'll definitely have to look into that further. Notice that the 2001 AUMF, which was written in a panic, authorizes arbitrary force with no mitigating effort required not only against nations but against "organizations" and "persons", and continues to authorize those efforts so long as they might prevent future acts of terrorism. It is hard to get much worse than that. The NDAA doesn't make it worse; in fact, by putting pen to paper and outlining specific circumstances in which the US can use its military to detain people, it ostensibly makes it better (it is hard to imagine making the 2001 or 2003 AUMF better without repealing it and starting over, though). Yea, that's definitely horrendous. That being said, the entire purpose of Section 1021 of the NDAA 2012 is to affirm those governmental powers. There's even a section which I cited which specifically states that the NDAA doesn't limit the President's powers at all: "(d) CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force." Which basically means "everything we just said about limits and expansions means jack squat when it comes to the president; (s)he can do whatever". So yea, the AUMF started this, and it was broad and allowed everything. The NDAA is still a problem because it continues it and doesn't actually limit anything when it comes to the President. The Alex Jones take on the NDAA would be that it's a huge executive overreach and a sign that the current administration favors an overt authorization of Latin American-style "disappearings" of suspected terrorists. Apart from the 2001-2003 context those febrile rants exclude, there is also the fact that the House and Senate GOP wanted the 2012 NDAA to expand the powers available to the executive to combat terrorism. I don't think I mentioned Alex Jones. Also "huge executive overreach and a sign that the current administration" and "the House and Senate GOP wanted the 2012 NDAA to expand the powers available to the executive". Both of those are right :) Both parties are responsible for this. This is a bi-partisan effort haha. It is also possible to be disquieted by detention and due process provisions in a war powers act while simultaneously understanding the context in which a reasonable person could assert them. For example, without some provision for detaining US citizens abroad, how would you lawfully handle any armed conflict with the Taliban? There are more than 300MM Americans. Some of them will win the lottery, and others will in fact fly to Pakistan to train with militants, as has already happened repeatedly. US military forces will eventually encounter them in armed conflict. In every war, there is always going to some due process concern regarding the handling of possible US citizens taking up arms to fight alongside our opponents. If a US citizen is engaging in a firefight with US armed forces, then yes, there's your proof they are "terrorists". If you can a US citizen in the act of building a bomb, then yes, there's your proof. However, if through the grape vine you gain "intelligence" that a certain US citizen is a "terrorist", by constitutional law you must provide that citizen a fair trial by a jury of their peers (i.e. not a military trial). If overseas, bring them back to the US. The AUMF generally and NDAA more specifically do away with that requirement (which is, in my opinion, one of the most fundamental aspects of american freedom). The Al Qaeda AUMF is ridiculously overbroad and needs to be fixed. But the NDAA, a utility bill that happens every year to fund the military, is not a re-ratification of that act, nor does it create a civil liberties regime in the US comparable to that of China. If it's not a re-ratification, then why mention it? If the government doesn't need it, why put the language in there? I think it's important to keep in mind that few things are put into legal documentation without express purpose, especially at the level of government.

tptacek 14y ago
I'm the one bringing up Alex Jones, as a way of being derisive about people who equate the US and China on the auspices that "the US has made policy mistakes and China has made policy mistakes so what's the difference?". I'm sorry that I accidentally implied that you, specifically, were regurgitating Infowars points. You ask, in effect, if the administration already had the ability under its war powers to detain people, why create a new bill that re-affirms that power? The answer is political. The conservative GOP wanted to re-affirm those war powers that benefited the CIA, and at the same time some (but not all) liberal elements of the Democratic party wanted to clarify and rein in those powers. There was a fight, and then a compromise bill, which, reading between the lines, attempts to punt the thorniest parts of the debate to the Supreme Court while creating an immediate statutory authority for CIA and DOD to continue doing what they're already doing. Yes, this is a clusterfuck. The problem in the US is that we were hit with one of the most damaging, best organized terrorist attacks by a non-state actor during the least competent administration of the past 50 years. Congress panicked and granted the Bush administration a wish list of military powers, and we're spending the ensuing decades gradually cleaning up after the resulting mess. That's a problem. But it's not a sign that the US is gradually turning into a dystopian hellscape. I don't care, except for two things. First, when people bring up the NDAA, they set off a "someone's wrong on the Internet" sensor that, as a nerd, I am unable to suppress. Second, as much as Internet psuedo-activists do not want to hear this, the "NDAA" issue is in fact a corner case in US policy. Indefinite detention of political dissidents in China is not a corner case. It is a daily fact of life, as it is elsewhere in the world. You can make millions of dollars spinning conspiracy theories about the evils of the government and big corporations in America, and the reality is, nobody really cares. Try doing that in Russia; see how long it takes for you or your coworkers to end up dead.
- willurd 14y ago
  I'm the one bringing up Alex Jones, as a way of being derisive about people who equate the US and China on the auspices that "the US has made policy mistakes and China has made policy mistakes so what's the difference?". I'm sorry that I accidentally implied that you, specifically, were regurgitating Infowars points. No problem. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't. Yes, this is a clusterfuck. That's something we definitely agree on ;) That's a problem. But it's not a sign that the US is gradually turning into a dystopian hellscape. At the risk of sounding crazy myself, I've seen too many recent videos of "peace officers" dragging peaceful protestors into the streets by their hair and group beating them with batons before handcuffing and arresting them, to believe that myself. But that's my opinion. And I really do wish that was the case. I don't care, except for two things. First, when people bring up the NDAA, they set off a "someone's wrong on the Internet" sensor that, as a nerd, I am unable to suppress. Second, as much as Internet psuedo-activists do not want to hear this, the "NDAA" issue is in fact a corner case in US policy. Indefinite detention of political dissidents in China is not a corner case. It is a daily fact of life, as it is elsewhere in the world. I don't have any examples of the provisions outlined in the NDAA and documents prior being used, so I can't speak to that. You can make millions of dollars spinning conspiracy theories about the evils of the government and big corporations in America, and the reality is, nobody really cares. Try doing that in Russia; see how long it takes for you or your coworkers to end up dead. "Try doing that in Russia; see how long it takes for you or your coworkers to end up dead." Let's be fair, you could make that same case for the death of Andrew Breitbart.

by willurd 14y ago

tptacek 14y ago

I'm the one bringing up Alex Jones, as a way of being derisive about people who equate the US and China on the auspices that "the US has made policy mistakes and China has made policy mistakes so what's the difference?". I'm sorry that I accidentally implied that you, specifically, were regurgitating Infowars points. You ask, in effect, if the administration already had the ability under its war powers to detain people, why create a new bill that re-affirms that power? The answer is political. The conservative GOP wanted to re-affirm those war powers that benefited the CIA, and at the same time some (but not all) liberal elements of the Democratic party wanted to clarify and rein in those powers. There was a fight, and then a compromise bill, which, reading between the lines, attempts to punt the thorniest parts of the debate to the Supreme Court while creating an immediate statutory authority for CIA and DOD to continue doing what they're already doing. Yes, this is a clusterfuck. The problem in the US is that we were hit with one of the most damaging, best organized terrorist attacks by a non-state actor during the least competent administration of the past 50 years. Congress panicked and granted the Bush administration a wish list of military powers, and we're spending the ensuing decades gradually cleaning up after the resulting mess. That's a problem. But it's not a sign that the US is gradually turning into a dystopian hellscape. I don't care, except for two things. First, when people bring up the NDAA, they set off a "someone's wrong on the Internet" sensor that, as a nerd, I am unable to suppress. Second, as much as Internet psuedo-activists do not want to hear this, the "NDAA" issue is in fact a corner case in US policy. Indefinite detention of political dissidents in China is not a corner case. It is a daily fact of life, as it is elsewhere in the world. You can make millions of dollars spinning conspiracy theories about the evils of the government and big corporations in America, and the reality is, nobody really cares. Try doing that in Russia; see how long it takes for you or your coworkers to end up dead.

willurd 14y ago
I'm the one bringing up Alex Jones, as a way of being derisive about people who equate the US and China on the auspices that "the US has made policy mistakes and China has made policy mistakes so what's the difference?". I'm sorry that I accidentally implied that you, specifically, were regurgitating Infowars points. No problem. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't. Yes, this is a clusterfuck. That's something we definitely agree on ;) That's a problem. But it's not a sign that the US is gradually turning into a dystopian hellscape. At the risk of sounding crazy myself, I've seen too many recent videos of "peace officers" dragging peaceful protestors into the streets by their hair and group beating them with batons before handcuffing and arresting them, to believe that myself. But that's my opinion. And I really do wish that was the case. I don't care, except for two things. First, when people bring up the NDAA, they set off a "someone's wrong on the Internet" sensor that, as a nerd, I am unable to suppress. Second, as much as Internet psuedo-activists do not want to hear this, the "NDAA" issue is in fact a corner case in US policy. Indefinite detention of political dissidents in China is not a corner case. It is a daily fact of life, as it is elsewhere in the world. I don't have any examples of the provisions outlined in the NDAA and documents prior being used, so I can't speak to that. You can make millions of dollars spinning conspiracy theories about the evils of the government and big corporations in America, and the reality is, nobody really cares. Try doing that in Russia; see how long it takes for you or your coworkers to end up dead. "Try doing that in Russia; see how long it takes for you or your coworkers to end up dead." Let's be fair, you could make that same case for the death of Andrew Breitbart.