3 ms·

Most new single home construction in Germany is in the form of cubes with flat roofs, absolutely ugly and will look like crap in 30-50 years (for me it looks li

Most new single home construction in Germany is in the form of cubes with flat roofs, absolutely ugly and will look like crap in 30-50 years (for me it looks like crap now already), see e.g. [1]. Insanity but for the builder it makes sense as it’s the cheapest way to conform to the energy saving requirements and maximize living room per lot size which is restricted due to idiotic zoning laws. I don’t get how this can be considered sustainable… And each of these houses costs more than 1 MM EUR. 1: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/169220882?referrer=HYBRID_VIEW_LISTING&searchId=f625c7e2-61d2-3fe4-a64d-ea4f0e7c18d9&searchType=district#/ https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/169220882?referrer=H...

jbstack 2mo ago
> And each of these houses costs more than 1 MM EUR. That's the other big problem with restrictive zoning laws (other than ugliness). It leads to unaffordable housing. By saying that a house must conform with X, Y, and Z you're essentially saying "anyone who doesn't have enough money to pay for X, Y, and Z can't buy a house". Sometimes restrictions are necessary (e.g. safety rules). Other times they sound good on paper but just end up being elitist (e.g. house must have X number of parking spaces, Y minimum size for rooms, Z minimum outdoor space). Yes, those things are nice to have. But we shouldn't price out people who can't afford them. It's better that someone starting out in life be able to buy a house with smaller rooms, than not be able to buy anything at all. We've become so obsessed with raising standards across the board that we've forgotten that the people we exclude from those standards end up with worse standards. Also, not everyone has the same priorities. Some people might like their bedroom to be huge. Others might just see it as a place to sleep and would rather spend their money on living in a good location, or some other priority. Restrictive zoning laws remove options by making buildings converge on a limited range of designs.
vintagedave 2mo ago
Aren't flat roofs at strongly increased risk of leakage? And need to be sealed very, very carefully? More than just looking crap in 30 years (agreed they do now) I worry, what about massive renovation required in 15 years? And that is an insane cost for a small, ugly building.
- throwaway63467 2mo ago
  In theory no, depends on how it’s done. It’s mostly a concrete ceiling with Bitumen and another polyethylene based layer on top normally, requires renewal every 30-50 years but it will stay tight if done right, at least it’s not much worse than a tiled roof.
  - nemomarx 2mo ago
    Is it better in some other way than an angled tile roof? I suppose you get more interior room at the same heights at least. Where I'm from heavy snow kinda rules out flat roofs so I'm unfamiliar with the reasons you'd want them.
    - bluGill 2mo ago
      I've seen places where the roof is an outdoor living space. That is the stairs go up to the top (not just maintenance access, but full access), and there is a safety railing around the top so kids can't fall off the edge. They are a great place to have a party, and replace the suburban backyard. That is the primary benefit of a flat roof, but it is only a tiny number of buildings that are like this. The vast majority of buildings do not allow roof access. Still I encourage it.
    - throwaway63467 2mo ago
      It’s just way cheaper, make a concrete ceiling, slap some insulation and proofing on top, done.
    - ethersteeds 2mo ago
      Flat roofs are very cost effective due to simplicity of design and installation. They also provide usable area for HVAC, solar panels, and decks.
deleted 2mo ago
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modo_mario 2mo ago
Same here in Belgium. It's placeless architecture and not exactly sustainable since they'll need replacements sooner and a stupid amount of the co2 cost of a building is in it's construction and the fabricaiton of it's materials. And then there's runoff from the roof with the sun exposure. I kind of expect this will end up a bigger issue than we make it out to be at the rate we're building these.

jbstack 2mo ago

> And each of these houses costs more than 1 MM EUR. That's the other big problem with restrictive zoning laws (other than ugliness). It leads to unaffordable housing. By saying that a house must conform with X, Y, and Z you're essentially saying "anyone who doesn't have enough money to pay for X, Y, and Z can't buy a house". Sometimes restrictions are necessary (e.g. safety rules). Other times they sound good on paper but just end up being elitist (e.g. house must have X number of parking spaces, Y minimum size for rooms, Z minimum outdoor space). Yes, those things are nice to have. But we shouldn't price out people who can't afford them. It's better that someone starting out in life be able to buy a house with smaller rooms, than not be able to buy anything at all. We've become so obsessed with raising standards across the board that we've forgotten that the people we exclude from those standards end up with worse standards. Also, not everyone has the same priorities. Some people might like their bedroom to be huge. Others might just see it as a place to sleep and would rather spend their money on living in a good location, or some other priority. Restrictive zoning laws remove options by making buildings converge on a limited range of designs.

vintagedave 2mo ago

Aren't flat roofs at strongly increased risk of leakage? And need to be sealed very, very carefully? More than just looking crap in 30 years (agreed they do now) I worry, what about massive renovation required in 15 years? And that is an insane cost for a small, ugly building.

throwaway63467 2mo ago
In theory no, depends on how it’s done. It’s mostly a concrete ceiling with Bitumen and another polyethylene based layer on top normally, requires renewal every 30-50 years but it will stay tight if done right, at least it’s not much worse than a tiled roof.
- nemomarx 2mo ago
  Is it better in some other way than an angled tile roof? I suppose you get more interior room at the same heights at least. Where I'm from heavy snow kinda rules out flat roofs so I'm unfamiliar with the reasons you'd want them.
  - bluGill 2mo ago
    I've seen places where the roof is an outdoor living space. That is the stairs go up to the top (not just maintenance access, but full access), and there is a safety railing around the top so kids can't fall off the edge. They are a great place to have a party, and replace the suburban backyard. That is the primary benefit of a flat roof, but it is only a tiny number of buildings that are like this. The vast majority of buildings do not allow roof access. Still I encourage it.
  - throwaway63467 2mo ago
    It’s just way cheaper, make a concrete ceiling, slap some insulation and proofing on top, done.
  - ethersteeds 2mo ago
    Flat roofs are very cost effective due to simplicity of design and installation. They also provide usable area for HVAC, solar panels, and decks.

deleted 2mo ago

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modo_mario 2mo ago

Same here in Belgium. It's placeless architecture and not exactly sustainable since they'll need replacements sooner and a stupid amount of the co2 cost of a building is in it's construction and the fabricaiton of it's materials. And then there's runoff from the roof with the sun exposure. I kind of expect this will end up a bigger issue than we make it out to be at the rate we're building these.