4 ms·

Maybe we shouldn't have moved the entire supply chain to asia. "we"

by recursivedoubts 2mo ago

derelicta 2mo ago
Luckily for the rest of the world, your elites have made that mistake.
- recursivedoubts 2mo ago
  i don't think they view it as a mistake
- ZeroGravitas 2mo ago
  The Capitalists Will [outsource the manufacturing of] the Rope with Which We Will Hang Them -- original quote attributed to various famous communists https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/02/22/rope/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/02/22/rope/
  - recursivedoubts 2mo ago
    lol I almost included that quote, but the reality is that china isn't communist in any meaningful way
- notarobot123 2mo ago
  perhaps themselves driven by global consumers culture that doesn't care how or where something was made as long as it's slightly cheaper.
dominotw 2mo ago
i dont know why this is such a sensitive topic that it gets immeditely flagged and considered some sort of hate speech. china gets massive advantage from western ideas that even benigh thing like 'lets not depend on china' is automatically considered hate speech and racism.
pydry 2mo ago
China cleverly identified America's Achilles heel: the greed and shortsightedness of its oligarchs. Give them an extra 5% profit and theyll sell out the entire country and reduce its industrial base to ashes.
- graemep 2mo ago
  many of them genuinely believe that it is progress to be above mere national interests. Certainly many people believe it to be a more progressive point of view.
  - Avicebron 2mo ago
    Not sure if it was a naive new world order belief, blinding greed, racism, plain stupidity or a mixture of all of that. But the end result was selling the American people down the river..
    - pydry 2mo ago
      there was an element of drinking their own kool aid. the economic religion of the late 90s and 00s was the theory of (static) comparative advantage vs export oriented industrialization. China was only shooting itself in the foot, it was argued, by not opening its markets fully and following export oriented industrialization. profit margins dictated economist opinions though. This is why EOI was treated as quaint while TOCA was treated as gospel truth even though one was nonsense.
    - graemep 2mo ago
      There was a belief in "the end of history": that any economy that developed would inevitably become a liberal free market democracy. I think this has left its mark. A lot of people do not seem to be able understand that this is not true. Even if they accept it intellectually its such a fundamental assumption that its still influential. I think there was, and is, an element of racism. It still persists in that a lot of westerners cannot comprehend that they can be overtaken technologically or threatened by non-western societies. This includes people who think they are not racist, or are anti-racist.
recursivedoubts 2mo ago
It's been funny watching the slippery slope fallacy fallacy at play w/the supply chain: - We'll only move cheap plastic toys to asia - We'll only move low-value clothing to asia - We'll only move inexpensive electronics to asia - We'll only move TVs to asia - We'll only move computer assembly to asia - We'll only move low-value semi-conductors to asia - We'll only move CPU production to asia Only thing really left is IP and frankly I expect asia to outperform the west in that soon enough (my understanding is that they already are in some areas, I am not an expert)
- derriz 2mo ago
  Countries don’t have infinite supplies of labor and capital. The more of an economy dedicated to making cheap plastic toys or stitching tshirts, the less economic resources available for inventing the next iPhone. The very reason China is becoming more competitive in higher value-added economic activities is because China itself has moved away from low value economic activities - like manufacturing cheap clothing - these activities that have largely moved to poorer neighboring countries over the last decade or so. And if you’re worried that the US is about to be out competed by China in the IP sphere, surely the US would be in a much weaker position if say 50% of its economy was focused on the production of cheap generic goods?
  - recursivedoubts 2mo ago
    yeah, i'm familiar with the just so stories told to us by economists, but the reality is that by moving the entire supply chain to asia there are huge knock on effects on our own ability to innovate and produce wealth the us has papered over it w/credit (no coincidence that the credit card came out right when productive capacity was being shifted to asia) but eventually every country sits down to a banquet of consequences same story as ever (florence under the medici, england under the whigs, etc) first productivity then usury
    - derriz 2mo ago
      What economic "just so" stories have I presented? You accept that economic capacity is not infinite, right? Then you need to tell me from which sector would you reallocate workers to doing the things you listed: producing cheap plastic toys, low-value clothing, inexpensive electronics, TVs, computer assembly, low-value semi-conductors and CPU production. Could you be more specific about the knock on effects of not making cheap plastic toys, etc. domestically? The US is still the clear global leader in technical innovation in nearly all sectors (and I'm not an American).

Maybe we shouldn't have moved the entire supply chain to asia. "we"

derelicta 2mo ago

Luckily for the rest of the world, your elites have made that mistake.

recursivedoubts 2mo ago
i don't think they view it as a mistake
ZeroGravitas 2mo ago
The Capitalists Will [outsource the manufacturing of] the Rope with Which We Will Hang Them -- original quote attributed to various famous communists https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/02/22/rope/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/02/22/rope/
- recursivedoubts 2mo ago
  lol I almost included that quote, but the reality is that china isn't communist in any meaningful way
notarobot123 2mo ago
perhaps themselves driven by global consumers culture that doesn't care how or where something was made as long as it's slightly cheaper.

dominotw 2mo ago

i dont know why this is such a sensitive topic that it gets immeditely flagged and considered some sort of hate speech. china gets massive advantage from western ideas that even benigh thing like 'lets not depend on china' is automatically considered hate speech and racism.

pydry 2mo ago

China cleverly identified America's Achilles heel: the greed and shortsightedness of its oligarchs. Give them an extra 5% profit and theyll sell out the entire country and reduce its industrial base to ashes.

graemep 2mo ago
many of them genuinely believe that it is progress to be above mere national interests. Certainly many people believe it to be a more progressive point of view.
- Avicebron 2mo ago
  Not sure if it was a naive new world order belief, blinding greed, racism, plain stupidity or a mixture of all of that. But the end result was selling the American people down the river..
  - pydry 2mo ago
    there was an element of drinking their own kool aid. the economic religion of the late 90s and 00s was the theory of (static) comparative advantage vs export oriented industrialization. China was only shooting itself in the foot, it was argued, by not opening its markets fully and following export oriented industrialization. profit margins dictated economist opinions though. This is why EOI was treated as quaint while TOCA was treated as gospel truth even though one was nonsense.
  - graemep 2mo ago
    There was a belief in "the end of history": that any economy that developed would inevitably become a liberal free market democracy. I think this has left its mark. A lot of people do not seem to be able understand that this is not true. Even if they accept it intellectually its such a fundamental assumption that its still influential. I think there was, and is, an element of racism. It still persists in that a lot of westerners cannot comprehend that they can be overtaken technologically or threatened by non-western societies. This includes people who think they are not racist, or are anti-racist.

recursivedoubts 2mo ago

It's been funny watching the slippery slope fallacy fallacy at play w/the supply chain: - We'll only move cheap plastic toys to asia - We'll only move low-value clothing to asia - We'll only move inexpensive electronics to asia - We'll only move TVs to asia - We'll only move computer assembly to asia - We'll only move low-value semi-conductors to asia - We'll only move CPU production to asia Only thing really left is IP and frankly I expect asia to outperform the west in that soon enough (my understanding is that they already are in some areas, I am not an expert)

derriz 2mo ago
Countries don’t have infinite supplies of labor and capital. The more of an economy dedicated to making cheap plastic toys or stitching tshirts, the less economic resources available for inventing the next iPhone. The very reason China is becoming more competitive in higher value-added economic activities is because China itself has moved away from low value economic activities - like manufacturing cheap clothing - these activities that have largely moved to poorer neighboring countries over the last decade or so. And if you’re worried that the US is about to be out competed by China in the IP sphere, surely the US would be in a much weaker position if say 50% of its economy was focused on the production of cheap generic goods?
- recursivedoubts 2mo ago
  yeah, i'm familiar with the just so stories told to us by economists, but the reality is that by moving the entire supply chain to asia there are huge knock on effects on our own ability to innovate and produce wealth the us has papered over it w/credit (no coincidence that the credit card came out right when productive capacity was being shifted to asia) but eventually every country sits down to a banquet of consequences same story as ever (florence under the medici, england under the whigs, etc) first productivity then usury
  - derriz 2mo ago
    What economic "just so" stories have I presented? You accept that economic capacity is not infinite, right? Then you need to tell me from which sector would you reallocate workers to doing the things you listed: producing cheap plastic toys, low-value clothing, inexpensive electronics, TVs, computer assembly, low-value semi-conductors and CPU production. Could you be more specific about the knock on effects of not making cheap plastic toys, etc. domestically? The US is still the clear global leader in technical innovation in nearly all sectors (and I'm not an American).