3 ms·

I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? Sounds like much less hassle? Reminds me of the time when

by rob74 2mo ago

I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? Sounds like much less hassle? Reminds me of the time when Big Food over here in Germany replaced MSG with "yeast extract" so they could claim that their foods contained no artificial flavor enhancers (although the yeast extract also contains a lot of glutamate).

pluralmonad 2mo ago
Like labelling bacon nitrate free while also including celery seed something-or-another that is... Just nitrates.
- d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
  While your comment is true, it is reductive. While celery seed does in fact contain nitrates which are turned into nitrites, it’s the next step that’s important. Unlike synthetic sodium nitrite, celery seeds contain vitamin C which acts as an antioxidant that converts the nitrites into harmless nitric oxide whereas the synthetic sodium nitrite is converted into harmful nitrosamines. The subtle differences in how our bodies process synthetic vs natural ingredients significantly impacts our bodies and health.
  - gruez 2mo ago
    >celery seeds contain vitamin C which acts as an antioxidant that converts the nitrites into harmless nitric oxide whereas the synthetic sodium nitrite is converted into harmful nitrosamines. This just sounds like post hoc justification. There's hardly any vitamin C in celery seeds[1][2]. Broccoli has 5x the vitamin C per 100g, despite much of it being water. Moreover, if the point is that vitamin C protects against nitrates, why not add vitamin C directly, rather than doing it in a roundabout way by adding celery seeds which also happen to contain vitamin C? [1] https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170920/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170920/nutrients [2] https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170379/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170379/nutrients
    - willy_k 2mo ago
      Maybe because people still want to eat food. The culture of trying to re-engineer life is not it.
      - gruez 2mo ago
        >The culture of trying to re-engineer life is not it. What does this even mean? Cured meats (via nitrates or celery seeds) is already an engineered product.
    - d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
      I’m in no way implying or arguing celery seeds contain a great amount of vitamin C. There are of course many foods that contain more vitamin C than celery seeds. I’m stating that the naturally occurring vitamin C in celery seeds is the key difference between natural and synthetic nitrites. I guess for me it just comes down to going back to basics. Why use multiple synthetic ingredients if a natural alternative exists. There are thousands of synthetic chemicals in the American food supply and we just don’t entirely know how they’re affecting our bodies.
      - gruez 2mo ago
        >I’m stating that the naturally occurring vitamin C in celery seeds is the key difference between natural and synthetic nitrites The original comment was about products being misleadingly labeled "nitrate free". The fact that celery seeds might have some mitigating vitamin C doesn't change this, any more than it would still be misleading to label with synthetic nitrates added as "nitrate free" if they also added vitamin C to it. Therefore I still think the tidbit about celery seeds containing vitamin C is post hoc justification. The rest of your comment also seems to confirm this, you think that celery seeds is intrinsically better than nitrates, because it's "natural".
        d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
        Ok
    - 2mo ago
- gruez 2mo ago
  They can't actually label it "nitrate free", only a superficially sounding term like "no nitrates added", with the hope that people (like you) think it's the same as "nitrate free".
  - amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
    I typically see it labeled "uncured."
    - t0mpr1c3 2mo ago
      That's just the usual US marketing bollocks. Whether it is cured with nitrates or with celery extract, bacon is definitely cured. If it is not cured, it is not bacon. I am more sympathetic to the term "turkey bacon" than "uncured bacon".
PetitPrince 2mo ago
Because people like the fish flavor ? Same reason we use tomato paste instead of a MSG + food coloring or parmesan instead of MSG + some protein I would say.
azath92 2mo ago
Its also a common misconception that all glutamates are MSG (thats one salt of glutamate) and that all umami compounds are simple glutamate salts. So while MSG is an excellent "neutral" umami ingredient, fermented products like this have a whole host of complex flavors that are often very desirable beyond just their glutamate salt.
ratelimitsteve 2mo ago
>I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? Because the various uammi sources also add other flavors. I like being able to choose between soy sauce, fish sauce, worcestershire sauce, soy bean paste, mushroom powder, anchovies, chicken powder, yeast extract, and, yes, msg (with 2% i&g) because each of them affects the recipe i'm working with differently. Is your diet nothing but chicken breast, raw flour and shortening because they're the simplest sources of protein, carbs and fat?
plastic-enjoyer 2mo ago
> I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? HN never disappoints when it comes to bizarre takes.
- akoboldfrying 2mo ago
  It's a legitimate question. The answer seems to be that the anchovies have a variety of glutamate salts with enjoyably different flavours. If the only glutamate in the anchovies was MSG, or if all the glutamates in them had the same flavour and nutrition properties as MSG -- both of which were open possibilities to me before the discussion GP's question prompted -- then no, there wouldn't be much point using anchovies instead of MSG.

by rob74 2mo ago

pluralmonad 2mo ago

Like labelling bacon nitrate free while also including celery seed something-or-another that is... Just nitrates.

d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
While your comment is true, it is reductive. While celery seed does in fact contain nitrates which are turned into nitrites, it’s the next step that’s important. Unlike synthetic sodium nitrite, celery seeds contain vitamin C which acts as an antioxidant that converts the nitrites into harmless nitric oxide whereas the synthetic sodium nitrite is converted into harmful nitrosamines. The subtle differences in how our bodies process synthetic vs natural ingredients significantly impacts our bodies and health.
- gruez 2mo ago
  >celery seeds contain vitamin C which acts as an antioxidant that converts the nitrites into harmless nitric oxide whereas the synthetic sodium nitrite is converted into harmful nitrosamines. This just sounds like post hoc justification. There's hardly any vitamin C in celery seeds[1][2]. Broccoli has 5x the vitamin C per 100g, despite much of it being water. Moreover, if the point is that vitamin C protects against nitrates, why not add vitamin C directly, rather than doing it in a roundabout way by adding celery seeds which also happen to contain vitamin C? [1] https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170920/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170920/nutrients [2] https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170379/nutrients https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/food-details/170379/nutrients
  - willy_k 2mo ago
    Maybe because people still want to eat food. The culture of trying to re-engineer life is not it.
    - gruez 2mo ago
      >The culture of trying to re-engineer life is not it. What does this even mean? Cured meats (via nitrates or celery seeds) is already an engineered product.
  - d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
    I’m in no way implying or arguing celery seeds contain a great amount of vitamin C. There are of course many foods that contain more vitamin C than celery seeds. I’m stating that the naturally occurring vitamin C in celery seeds is the key difference between natural and synthetic nitrites. I guess for me it just comes down to going back to basics. Why use multiple synthetic ingredients if a natural alternative exists. There are thousands of synthetic chemicals in the American food supply and we just don’t entirely know how they’re affecting our bodies.
    - gruez 2mo ago
      >I’m stating that the naturally occurring vitamin C in celery seeds is the key difference between natural and synthetic nitrites The original comment was about products being misleadingly labeled "nitrate free". The fact that celery seeds might have some mitigating vitamin C doesn't change this, any more than it would still be misleading to label with synthetic nitrates added as "nitrate free" if they also added vitamin C to it. Therefore I still think the tidbit about celery seeds containing vitamin C is post hoc justification. The rest of your comment also seems to confirm this, you think that celery seeds is intrinsically better than nitrates, because it's "natural".
      - d-e-r-e-k 2mo ago
        Ok
  - 2mo ago
gruez 2mo ago
They can't actually label it "nitrate free", only a superficially sounding term like "no nitrates added", with the hope that people (like you) think it's the same as "nitrate free".
- amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
  I typically see it labeled "uncured."
  - t0mpr1c3 2mo ago
    That's just the usual US marketing bollocks. Whether it is cured with nitrates or with celery extract, bacon is definitely cured. If it is not cured, it is not bacon. I am more sympathetic to the term "turkey bacon" than "uncured bacon".

PetitPrince 2mo ago

Because people like the fish flavor ? Same reason we use tomato paste instead of a MSG + food coloring or parmesan instead of MSG + some protein I would say.

azath92 2mo ago

Its also a common misconception that all glutamates are MSG (thats one salt of glutamate) and that all umami compounds are simple glutamate salts. So while MSG is an excellent "neutral" umami ingredient, fermented products like this have a whole host of complex flavors that are often very desirable beyond just their glutamate salt.

ratelimitsteve 2mo ago

>I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? Because the various uammi sources also add other flavors. I like being able to choose between soy sauce, fish sauce, worcestershire sauce, soy bean paste, mushroom powder, anchovies, chicken powder, yeast extract, and, yes, msg (with 2% i&g) because each of them affects the recipe i'm working with differently. Is your diet nothing but chicken breast, raw flour and shortening because they're the simplest sources of protein, carbs and fat?

plastic-enjoyer 2mo ago

> I mean, instead of investing so much effort to get glutamate into your food, why not use MSG directly? HN never disappoints when it comes to bizarre takes.

akoboldfrying 2mo ago
It's a legitimate question. The answer seems to be that the anchovies have a variety of glutamate salts with enjoyably different flavours. If the only glutamate in the anchovies was MSG, or if all the glutamates in them had the same flavour and nutrition properties as MSG -- both of which were open possibilities to me before the discussion GP's question prompted -- then no, there wouldn't be much point using anchovies instead of MSG.