4 ms·

I'm living in Berlin for 13/45 of my life, but I don't think I will ever feel integrated. As much as I tried to get around and adapt to the local culture, I qui

I'm living in Berlin for 13/45 of my life, but I don't think I will ever feel integrated. As much as I tried to get around and adapt to the local culture, I quickly found myself only connecting with non-Germans, most of them from Southern Europe, and on a smaller scale from Poland and the Balkans.

bspinner 2mo ago
Would like to hear your thoughts on why that is the case.
- akie 2mo ago
  I'm also a foreigner in Berlin, and my guess is twofold: 1. Their German isn't good enough, which limits the pool of people you can connect to 2. They only or mostly hang out in the expat-scene, which limits the pool of people you can connect to
  - rglullis 2mo ago
    1) I am certified C1 German - studied in high school for 6 years. Granted, I don't like speaking German and will use English when possible, but it's not a matter of not being able to connect with them. 2) Shortly after moving in, I started dating a German woman. Lasted close to a whole year. That was more than enough time to meet a lot of her friends, I got to meet her family, etc. That was more than enough time and opportunities to get a good insight into "native German" lifestyle, culture and values. Want to try again?
    - platybubsy 2mo ago
      wowow C1 and dated a German? Sorry, you are basically a native
      - rglullis 2mo ago
        You take that back, right now!
    - eska 2mo ago
      You don’t know Germany, you know Berlin. You don’t have insight into German lifestyle, you have insight into that one woman’s family’s lifestyle (and only less than a year, you’re not a family member at that point).
      - rglullis 2mo ago
        I'm not claiming that I know all of Germany or all Germans, I am just refuting GP's guesses. Also, she wasn't the only German that I've met and it wasn't the case that I only met native Germans through her personal network. I also worked at Deutsche Telekom and Mercedes Benz. I've had the opportunity to interact with lots of people outside of the work environment.
    - throwaway2037 2mo ago
      > Granted, I don't like speaking German and will use English when possible, but it's not a matter of not being able to connect with them. Why do you live in Germany? Why not somewhere else?
      - rglullis 2mo ago
        Because I have not been able to convince my wife to move to Greece. Also, the fact that I am not integrated does not mean that I am unhappy here.
  - dathinab 2mo ago
    no, it's the Berlin experience, even for many Germans 1. speaking German doesn't matter too much in Berlin, except older "Berlin Berlins" most people speak conversational English. I have even seen cases of _all_ personal in a caffe not speaking German..., more then once. 2. Over half the people in Berlin are "expat-like": ~20% of people in Berlin are not from Germany, 30-40% or so are not from Berlin and only there fro some years/decades to study or similar. And the distribution isn't uniform across Berlins, i.e. the areas you are most likely to end up as an (actual) expat (or similar) are the ones with way higher ratios. Like if you connect someone in such a area (weather physical or area-of-life) it's actually surprising if that person if "from" Berlin. Like you as a person "from" Berlin are more a special case then idk. someone from Poland ;).
    - pizza234 2mo ago
      > 1. speaking German doesn't matter too much in Berlin, except older "Berlin Berlins" most people speak conversational English This depends on the context: it doesn't matter to speak German in the stage of life where one doesn't interface with the administration (and therefore, older generations). But for those who settle, and are past that stage, German is a requirement.
      - dathinab 2mo ago
        > German is a requirement. should be, but de-facto isn't, like seriously you can live decades in Berlin without learning German. As a German I could fully stop understanding German from tomorrow on and in any situation except my parents it would work out, with only very limited issues here and there. Most which normally solvable with camera based translation apps (e.g. Google Lense), and some other by deciding which part of Berlin I spend my time in. and legally it's only required if you try to get a German pass
- rglullis 2mo ago
  I was going to respond with "Protestantism", but then I realized that I also lived in the US for ~5 years and I had no problem to adapt there. Mind you, I wouldn't go back to live in the US unless you were paying me a lot of money to do so, but at least there I felt integrated. But honestly I don't have a better answer. Despite all my sincerest efforts, I never got the German idea of humor. I never understood their lack of flexibility in social settings. Their relationships with their family members (especially parents) is completely alien to me. I certainly don't like their "one-size-fits-all" for all sorts of socio-economic policies and how that translates to the EU. I am still annoyed by the fact that I can not find a way to go back to swimming in some structured capacity: it's either the overcrowded public pools or the "you need to be at competition-ready level to join a Schwimmverein". I find it weird that I've been living in the same building for 7 years and I know basically nothing about my neighbors - except the ones living under me who repeatedly complained about us being loud (we were not) and only stopped after taking us to court and losing the case.
  - holgerschurig 2mo ago
    > I never got the German idea of humor. A lot of foreigners say that. Actually mostly english speaking ones. I never heard a turk say this. Perhaps it's linked to the willingness to learn the language, which is often low with english-speaking people? No idea, but back to the story: my answer to this "I don't get the humor" is: I don't get spanish humor. And the simple reason is that I don't speak spanish good enough. I get SOME of the british & US humor. But only a bit ... my language skill, albeit perhaps ok if you look at it, is still not good enough to detect the subtle details. IMHO that is the reason why e.g. Mr Bean was easy to export: he doesn't talk :-) In any case: to get the local humor, you MUST learn the language and even the culture quite good. Otherwise, you simply don't get it.
  - vladvasiliu 2mo ago
    > I find it weird that I've been living in the same building for 7 years and I know basically nothing about my neighbors Isn't this just par for the course when living in dense settings? I've been living in my current apartment for more than three years, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't recognize most of my neighbors if I randomly saw them in the street. We say hello when our paths cross coming and going, but that's it. Many people come to the cities specifically looking to be more anonymous. You can't have that if everybody knows everybody.
- pizza234 2mo ago
  German culture is very functional, rigid, and dry, and it serves people with that kind of mindset very well. However, it clashes strongly with typical Southern cultures, so it is no surprise that the parent mentioned this. People who value the "softer" aspects of life are not going to feel at home. There are certainly exceptions, and YMMV.
  - rglullis 2mo ago
    That's a pithy description of it all. If I hadn't met my (Greek) wife in 2015, I've probably would have left long ago. And to come of think of it, I think there is another aspect that influences this: Germans are not having as many kids as the immigrants, so the overwhelming majority of the kids in the kitas and schools are from immigrant families or immigrant/native mixed parents. This means that (at this stage in life) any new friends you get to make are likely through your kids, and even there the pool is selected against Germans.
    - sveme 2mo ago
      That's a very Berlin-centric observation. Berlin is special; it's hard to extrapolate to the rest of the country.
      - rglullis 2mo ago
        Maybe, but a quick AI-assisted research says that Bremen has an even higher rate of births from non-German mothers than Berlin, and the data does not make the distinction between citizenship and immigration status.
        sveme 2mo ago
        What do you mean with „Germans“? In my friends group, in my son‘s football club, in school, most kids have a so called migration background, but the parents are mostly second generation and mostly assimilated. So what?
        2mo ago
- alphabeta3r56 2mo ago
  Not the OP but to give you an example. Spines on books in German are written one way along the spine. While generally in English books it's the other way round. https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1n5booe/do_all_german_books_have_bottomtotop_writing_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1n5booe/do_all_ger... Both have their trade-offs and most cultures are chill about it, but a lot of Germans will swear by the way it is done in Germany being the logical method. It is a vrry homogenizing culture that way. It also goes for most things in life like sentence case vs title case for headings. Pairing of flavors in dishes (although that is changing). All in all, it gives you the idea of "there's a german way to do things which is the correct way, please adjust." To be clear, there are some German ways which I think have much more far reaching consequences, and one about should argue about them, like attitude toward labor laws or LGBT stance. (And whichever way you feel about it, you can agree that the stance has far reaching consequences). And Germans will club all of the different level of seriousness together at the same level with whether you have a accent in your German, for example, when considering how integrated you are. And that is incredibly frustrating and makes one feel left out. And it is not just immigrants. I know people who moved from Hamburg to Erlangen who felt more left out than me who moved from India to Erlangen (mostly because I had a German girlfriend at that point.)
  - magimas 2mo ago
    what are you talking about bro, I think you're really getting carried away here. Nobody cares about the direction of writing on the spine of a book. And your thing with sentence vs title case doesn't make sense because German doesn't even have that distinction.
    - alphabeta3r56 2mo ago
      https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/s/kUJllIkqFs https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/s/kUJllIkqFs
Beretta_Vexee 2mo ago
> living in Berlin ... I don't think I will ever feel integrated. I’d understood this was a typical Berlin experience even for German.
dathinab 2mo ago
I have been living in Berlin since my birth and your experience is one _many Germans have in Berlin, too_. Berlin is it's own thing, both in good and bad, I would not treat it as representative for Germany at all. 1. Berlin is the _least_ German Germany city, by far. 2. around ~20% of people living in Berlin aren't from Germany, I can't find the numbers but I think another 30-40% where not born in Berlin and likely won't stay more then 10-20 years. So _most people in Berlin are there temporary_, with people constantly moving in and out. 2.2. and the distribution of people long term living in Berlin and such being there temporary for studies, party, work, etc. isn't even across Berlin. In some areas you might mostly find people not "from" Berlin. To a point when meeting people in Berlin they sometimes are quite surprised if someone actually is from Berlin and not just lives there "for now"... 2.3. and in some parts of the city a non small part of "Berlins" born here are have parents or grandparents from Turkey which moved here in the 60th. 3. Berlin has a lot of sub-culturs which can be grate and fun, but also a common background rule is "you do what you want and I want I want" this can be really grate, or terrible as (not sure how to say it) the background social network which tends to integrate people into a local society is somewhat absence. Or to put it differently a lot (but not all) of people don't care about you, they won't harass you for being different, but they won't help you either if you don't happen to be a close friend. On the other hand in many other parts of Germany people are more strict about "you somewhat fitting in" but in turn if you try might also help you in the most unexpected ways (as I said I'm not sure how to best express this, this point is starkly oversimplified and can be misread in a lot of ways). 4. through Berlin has _a lot_ of different faces, some even people living there for decades might not have seen. So if you are in the right corner/community 3rd might not apply to you at all. Trying to describe Berlin in one way is a bit like pretending all of Germany is Bavaria. 5. Berlin is a swamp. Not just because the name might be based on birl~„Sumpf“ in some partially lost old languages. Or because some parts have frequently ~80+% Air Humidity (in fall/spring/warmer winter days; at ground level). Or because of it being the political centrum and as such associated with all the non Bavaria specific political corruption. But also because people "become marshy" (not good translation) here. I.e. they come here and then slowly and continuously slow down and get stuck here, never really arriving, but also not getting forward or backward. Now this isn't complete and more focused on the bad parts, Berlin can also be grate, for a large city it's extremely green, most side streets and many main streets have road side trees and there are ~2000 additional "green areas" (like e.g. parks, but some very very small). There are tons of places to enjoy the evening in all kinds of ways, ton's of culture from clubs to theater, opera and shows. A lot of history. A lot of sub-cultures of all kind etc. But also it is just green (not flowery), you might not care about most culture things and just because there are many sub-cutlures doesn't mean it's something for you or you manage to connect to them. Also it's kinda dirty and this has gotten worse thanks multiple factors including the current city Government cutting costs in the wrong places... Eh, anyway, my recommendation is: - If you want to experience Berlin go to Berlin, if you want to party/enjoy evening non stop for a few years also go to Berlin, same for students where a Uni here matches their goals nicely. But if you want to experience Germany, then don't come here. - If your life is stuck in Berlin (no matter if you are German or not) seriously consider leaving, for some people Berlin is long term poison which slowly eats away their happiness. There is a reason a large part of people in Berlin only stay there for a few decades at most. - Don't expect to meet Berlins is Berlin (it's less then half the population in some regions way less). And in some areas of life don't even expect to meet/connect to that many "typical" Germans.
throwaway2037 2mo ago
> I don't think I will ever feel integrated. Do you speak German well? That is biggest barrier for most.

bspinner 2mo ago

Would like to hear your thoughts on why that is the case.

akie 2mo ago
I'm also a foreigner in Berlin, and my guess is twofold: 1. Their German isn't good enough, which limits the pool of people you can connect to 2. They only or mostly hang out in the expat-scene, which limits the pool of people you can connect to
- rglullis 2mo ago
  1) I am certified C1 German - studied in high school for 6 years. Granted, I don't like speaking German and will use English when possible, but it's not a matter of not being able to connect with them. 2) Shortly after moving in, I started dating a German woman. Lasted close to a whole year. That was more than enough time to meet a lot of her friends, I got to meet her family, etc. That was more than enough time and opportunities to get a good insight into "native German" lifestyle, culture and values. Want to try again?
  - platybubsy 2mo ago
    wowow C1 and dated a German? Sorry, you are basically a native
    - rglullis 2mo ago
      You take that back, right now!
  - eska 2mo ago
    You don’t know Germany, you know Berlin. You don’t have insight into German lifestyle, you have insight into that one woman’s family’s lifestyle (and only less than a year, you’re not a family member at that point).
    - rglullis 2mo ago
      I'm not claiming that I know all of Germany or all Germans, I am just refuting GP's guesses. Also, she wasn't the only German that I've met and it wasn't the case that I only met native Germans through her personal network. I also worked at Deutsche Telekom and Mercedes Benz. I've had the opportunity to interact with lots of people outside of the work environment.
  - throwaway2037 2mo ago
    > Granted, I don't like speaking German and will use English when possible, but it's not a matter of not being able to connect with them. Why do you live in Germany? Why not somewhere else?
    - rglullis 2mo ago
      Because I have not been able to convince my wife to move to Greece. Also, the fact that I am not integrated does not mean that I am unhappy here.
- dathinab 2mo ago
  no, it's the Berlin experience, even for many Germans 1. speaking German doesn't matter too much in Berlin, except older "Berlin Berlins" most people speak conversational English. I have even seen cases of _all_ personal in a caffe not speaking German..., more then once. 2. Over half the people in Berlin are "expat-like": ~20% of people in Berlin are not from Germany, 30-40% or so are not from Berlin and only there fro some years/decades to study or similar. And the distribution isn't uniform across Berlins, i.e. the areas you are most likely to end up as an (actual) expat (or similar) are the ones with way higher ratios. Like if you connect someone in such a area (weather physical or area-of-life) it's actually surprising if that person if "from" Berlin. Like you as a person "from" Berlin are more a special case then idk. someone from Poland ;).
  - pizza234 2mo ago
    > 1. speaking German doesn't matter too much in Berlin, except older "Berlin Berlins" most people speak conversational English This depends on the context: it doesn't matter to speak German in the stage of life where one doesn't interface with the administration (and therefore, older generations). But for those who settle, and are past that stage, German is a requirement.
    - dathinab 2mo ago
      > German is a requirement. should be, but de-facto isn't, like seriously you can live decades in Berlin without learning German. As a German I could fully stop understanding German from tomorrow on and in any situation except my parents it would work out, with only very limited issues here and there. Most which normally solvable with camera based translation apps (e.g. Google Lense), and some other by deciding which part of Berlin I spend my time in. and legally it's only required if you try to get a German pass
rglullis 2mo ago
I was going to respond with "Protestantism", but then I realized that I also lived in the US for ~5 years and I had no problem to adapt there. Mind you, I wouldn't go back to live in the US unless you were paying me a lot of money to do so, but at least there I felt integrated. But honestly I don't have a better answer. Despite all my sincerest efforts, I never got the German idea of humor. I never understood their lack of flexibility in social settings. Their relationships with their family members (especially parents) is completely alien to me. I certainly don't like their "one-size-fits-all" for all sorts of socio-economic policies and how that translates to the EU. I am still annoyed by the fact that I can not find a way to go back to swimming in some structured capacity: it's either the overcrowded public pools or the "you need to be at competition-ready level to join a Schwimmverein". I find it weird that I've been living in the same building for 7 years and I know basically nothing about my neighbors - except the ones living under me who repeatedly complained about us being loud (we were not) and only stopped after taking us to court and losing the case.
- holgerschurig 2mo ago
  > I never got the German idea of humor. A lot of foreigners say that. Actually mostly english speaking ones. I never heard a turk say this. Perhaps it's linked to the willingness to learn the language, which is often low with english-speaking people? No idea, but back to the story: my answer to this "I don't get the humor" is: I don't get spanish humor. And the simple reason is that I don't speak spanish good enough. I get SOME of the british & US humor. But only a bit ... my language skill, albeit perhaps ok if you look at it, is still not good enough to detect the subtle details. IMHO that is the reason why e.g. Mr Bean was easy to export: he doesn't talk :-) In any case: to get the local humor, you MUST learn the language and even the culture quite good. Otherwise, you simply don't get it.
- vladvasiliu 2mo ago
  > I find it weird that I've been living in the same building for 7 years and I know basically nothing about my neighbors Isn't this just par for the course when living in dense settings? I've been living in my current apartment for more than three years, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't recognize most of my neighbors if I randomly saw them in the street. We say hello when our paths cross coming and going, but that's it. Many people come to the cities specifically looking to be more anonymous. You can't have that if everybody knows everybody.
pizza234 2mo ago
German culture is very functional, rigid, and dry, and it serves people with that kind of mindset very well. However, it clashes strongly with typical Southern cultures, so it is no surprise that the parent mentioned this. People who value the "softer" aspects of life are not going to feel at home. There are certainly exceptions, and YMMV.
- rglullis 2mo ago
  That's a pithy description of it all. If I hadn't met my (Greek) wife in 2015, I've probably would have left long ago. And to come of think of it, I think there is another aspect that influences this: Germans are not having as many kids as the immigrants, so the overwhelming majority of the kids in the kitas and schools are from immigrant families or immigrant/native mixed parents. This means that (at this stage in life) any new friends you get to make are likely through your kids, and even there the pool is selected against Germans.
  - sveme 2mo ago
    That's a very Berlin-centric observation. Berlin is special; it's hard to extrapolate to the rest of the country.
    - rglullis 2mo ago
      Maybe, but a quick AI-assisted research says that Bremen has an even higher rate of births from non-German mothers than Berlin, and the data does not make the distinction between citizenship and immigration status.
      - sveme 2mo ago
        What do you mean with „Germans“? In my friends group, in my son‘s football club, in school, most kids have a so called migration background, but the parents are mostly second generation and mostly assimilated. So what?
        2mo ago
alphabeta3r56 2mo ago
Not the OP but to give you an example. Spines on books in German are written one way along the spine. While generally in English books it's the other way round. https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1n5booe/do_all_german_books_have_bottomtotop_writing_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1n5booe/do_all_ger... Both have their trade-offs and most cultures are chill about it, but a lot of Germans will swear by the way it is done in Germany being the logical method. It is a vrry homogenizing culture that way. It also goes for most things in life like sentence case vs title case for headings. Pairing of flavors in dishes (although that is changing). All in all, it gives you the idea of "there's a german way to do things which is the correct way, please adjust." To be clear, there are some German ways which I think have much more far reaching consequences, and one about should argue about them, like attitude toward labor laws or LGBT stance. (And whichever way you feel about it, you can agree that the stance has far reaching consequences). And Germans will club all of the different level of seriousness together at the same level with whether you have a accent in your German, for example, when considering how integrated you are. And that is incredibly frustrating and makes one feel left out. And it is not just immigrants. I know people who moved from Hamburg to Erlangen who felt more left out than me who moved from India to Erlangen (mostly because I had a German girlfriend at that point.)
- magimas 2mo ago
  what are you talking about bro, I think you're really getting carried away here. Nobody cares about the direction of writing on the spine of a book. And your thing with sentence vs title case doesn't make sense because German doesn't even have that distinction.
  - alphabeta3r56 2mo ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/s/kUJllIkqFs https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAGerman/s/kUJllIkqFs

Beretta_Vexee 2mo ago

> living in Berlin ... I don't think I will ever feel integrated. I’d understood this was a typical Berlin experience even for German.

dathinab 2mo ago

I have been living in Berlin since my birth and your experience is one _many Germans have in Berlin, too_. Berlin is it's own thing, both in good and bad, I would not treat it as representative for Germany at all. 1. Berlin is the _least_ German Germany city, by far. 2. around ~20% of people living in Berlin aren't from Germany, I can't find the numbers but I think another 30-40% where not born in Berlin and likely won't stay more then 10-20 years. So _most people in Berlin are there temporary_, with people constantly moving in and out. 2.2. and the distribution of people long term living in Berlin and such being there temporary for studies, party, work, etc. isn't even across Berlin. In some areas you might mostly find people not "from" Berlin. To a point when meeting people in Berlin they sometimes are quite surprised if someone actually is from Berlin and not just lives there "for now"... 2.3. and in some parts of the city a non small part of "Berlins" born here are have parents or grandparents from Turkey which moved here in the 60th. 3. Berlin has a lot of sub-culturs which can be grate and fun, but also a common background rule is "you do what you want and I want I want" this can be really grate, or terrible as (not sure how to say it) the background social network which tends to integrate people into a local society is somewhat absence. Or to put it differently a lot (but not all) of people don't care about you, they won't harass you for being different, but they won't help you either if you don't happen to be a close friend. On the other hand in many other parts of Germany people are more strict about "you somewhat fitting in" but in turn if you try might also help you in the most unexpected ways (as I said I'm not sure how to best express this, this point is starkly oversimplified and can be misread in a lot of ways). 4. through Berlin has _a lot_ of different faces, some even people living there for decades might not have seen. So if you are in the right corner/community 3rd might not apply to you at all. Trying to describe Berlin in one way is a bit like pretending all of Germany is Bavaria. 5. Berlin is a swamp. Not just because the name might be based on birl~„Sumpf“ in some partially lost old languages. Or because some parts have frequently ~80+% Air Humidity (in fall/spring/warmer winter days; at ground level). Or because of it being the political centrum and as such associated with all the non Bavaria specific political corruption. But also because people "become marshy" (not good translation) here. I.e. they come here and then slowly and continuously slow down and get stuck here, never really arriving, but also not getting forward or backward. Now this isn't complete and more focused on the bad parts, Berlin can also be grate, for a large city it's extremely green, most side streets and many main streets have road side trees and there are ~2000 additional "green areas" (like e.g. parks, but some very very small). There are tons of places to enjoy the evening in all kinds of ways, ton's of culture from clubs to theater, opera and shows. A lot of history. A lot of sub-cultures of all kind etc. But also it is just green (not flowery), you might not care about most culture things and just because there are many sub-cutlures doesn't mean it's something for you or you manage to connect to them. Also it's kinda dirty and this has gotten worse thanks multiple factors including the current city Government cutting costs in the wrong places... Eh, anyway, my recommendation is: - If you want to experience Berlin go to Berlin, if you want to party/enjoy evening non stop for a few years also go to Berlin, same for students where a Uni here matches their goals nicely. But if you want to experience Germany, then don't come here. - If your life is stuck in Berlin (no matter if you are German or not) seriously consider leaving, for some people Berlin is long term poison which slowly eats away their happiness. There is a reason a large part of people in Berlin only stay there for a few decades at most. - Don't expect to meet Berlins is Berlin (it's less then half the population in some regions way less). And in some areas of life don't even expect to meet/connect to that many "typical" Germans.

throwaway2037 2mo ago

> I don't think I will ever feel integrated. Do you speak German well? That is biggest barrier for most.