4 ms·

I think a lot of the complaining comes from high taxes, remembering the "good old times" and just from being German. Germans love to complain. I left Germany f

by ovb39 2mo ago

I think a lot of the complaining comes from high taxes, remembering the "good old times" and just from being German. Germans love to complain. I left Germany for a few years and came back. There are very few other places I could imagine to live in. Maybe Norway, Canada or Switzerland. I hope Germany gets its things together, the recent uprise of xenophobia and social polarization is concerning. I grew up in a Germany where it didn't matter where you came from or what you looked like.

mr_mitm 2mo ago
I, a German, went to Switzerland for vacation once. I talked to a Swiss guy about how I like Switzerland and all that. I told him how impressed I was with how organized everything is and how well everything works. The train system and public transport in general is wonderful compared to the one we have in Germany, for example. To my surprise, he said something along the line of "yeah well, it only looks like that from the outside". Perhaps the tendency to complain is a necessity to achieve a high level of efficiency.
- Gud 2mo ago
  I moved from Sweden to Switzerland, and I don't know what that guy was talking about. Switzerland is an extremely well run country.
  - shutyourhole 2mo ago
    [dead]
  - 4ggr0 2mo ago
    I mean it helps that there's around 9M people living there, 1/10th of Germany or about the same amount as London or New York. Also helps to accumulate wealth by taking care of global blood-money and being a diplomatic hub :) and let's not forget the tons of gold we got gifted about a hundred years ago, sadly can't quite remember where we got that from.
    - scotty79 2mo ago
      > Also helps to accumulate wealth by taking care of global blood-money and being a diplomatic hub People say that, but ETFs that invest into plain old boring sectors of Swiss industry give long term returns half way between USA AI insanity and everything else in the world. So they must be doing something right with their industrial economy as well.
      - 4ggr0 2mo ago
        we got some huge, international companies here. pharma, banks, insurance, food and beverages, resource trading and a more-or-less stable political system. https://companiesmarketcap.com/switzerland/largest-companies-in-switzerland-by-market-cap/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/switzerland/largest-companies...
    - Gud 2mo ago
      It also helps that Switzerland has a decentralized and direct democratic system of governance. The rest is just noise.
  - lynx97 2mo ago
    I suspect natives have a more nuanced view of their home country, compared to expats who end up getting a tinted view. At least it likely takes a long time for an outsider to truly understand how things work. Reading the newspapers isn't representative, you know...
    - throw-the-towel 2mo ago
      The natives have their own biases.
      - lynx97 2mo ago
        If you call "must more anecodtal knowledge" a bias, I give you that.
- zelphirkalt 2mo ago
  Do you know, that by now Switzerland frequently refuses German trains to enter the country, because of delays? They don't want Deutsche Bahn mismanagement and delays to affect their own train network. Very reasonable to put a stop to this.
  - mr_mitm 2mo ago
    Yes
  - aix1 2mo ago
    What they do is very interesting, though IMO "refuse to enter the country" sounds harsher than it actually is. If an inbound German train is late to Basel by more than 20 minutes, the Swiss run their own substitute train from Basel (they keep rolling stock on standby). The replacement train runs to the original timetable so that local passengers are unaffected. The late train is then pulled out of service at Basel (there are frequent onward connections). They do something similar at Schaffhausen. Trains that are late into St. Margrethen are made to queue behind local traffic.
    - a2tech 2mo ago
      That sounds like an excellent solution for locals. But it also seems very inefficient because of the need to keep rolling stock in reserve, ready to go just in case. That’s a lot of maintenance, staff, and machine time to burn.
      - aleph_minus_one 2mo ago
        > But it also seems very inefficient because of the need to keep rolling stock in reserve, ready to go just in case. That’s a lot of maintenance, staff, and machine time to burn. Considering how often the Deutsche Bahn isn't on time (I say this as a German), the SBB should have use for this rolling stock nearly all the time - so it's rather efficient. :-)
      - aix1 2mo ago
        It was the locals who decided that it was worth the extra hassle and expense (and that doing the same thing at St. Margrethen wasn't). There was probably a referendum at some point. :) I am not sure whether the stats are comparable, but I read somewhere that about half of Deutsche Bahn trains are late into Basel (and there are many trains a day). While I don't know this for a fact, it wouldn't surpise me if patterns of delays are relatively predictable and can be planned for. There was some talk about just ending those routes at Basel at some far-away point in the future, but I'm not sure if that's something that's been decided.
- herbst 2mo ago
  Swiss people often don't see how awesome swiss is themself except they have been away for a longer while to see how shitty every other place tends to be. Ex. Most people here think Europe is generally this clean. They never bothered looking out of their car in literally any other neighbor country. Source: Austria living in Switzerland who also lived in Thailand, Malaysia, Czech, .. for a while.
- poisonborz 2mo ago
  A normal sized plot with a house listed to be torn down on in outskirts of Zurich costs 7mil. A 2 bedroom apartment on the countryside costs 2mil. You will not pay this in a lifetime from 2 good level swiss salaries.
  - stephenhuey 2mo ago
    Are you Swiss? I'm no expert but from talking to Swiss people, their mortgage system is very different from the American one, and people are in no hurry to pay off their mortgages, and often they're never really paid off. Americans might find that appalling but the Swiss people I've spoken to find it normal. Tax incentives also help with this.
    - poisonborz 2mo ago
      It is the UK/Nordic system which I find morbidly bad. It already assumes you will never pay off the property and you pass it down to family and children, possibly multiple generations. It allows for property prices to go to the moon instead of incentivising for affordability. Makes for a system giving up owning property. How did we humans come to this.
      - DANmode 2mo ago
        Allowing financial system abstraction on one end, and allowing our brains to rot on the other.
- pjmlp 2mo ago
  As southern European that has lived a couple of years in Switzerland and eventually moved into Germany, I always mention that from flexibility and rules point of view, being in Germany versus Switzerland, feels so much better in Germany. Sorry for the stereotypes, it was just how it felt dealing with everything, which is how everything gets to be so organised in first place, and the difference on similar matters in Germany, still I go back into Switzerland with some regularity.
  - ivell 2mo ago
    Swiss voted against tax reduction in the past. I do not know of that many countries, where people would have done that. So the way they think is a bit different. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/poison-withholding-tax-vote-sunday-sept-25-poison/47902484 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/poison-withholding-tax...
    - 1718627440 2mo ago
      If you have a high ROI it's a bad idea to stop putting money in. Logically all people should be for high taxes, but they are not, because they don't believe that their taxes fund things they profit from and that it's easier to put less money in, then to fix that.
- dranudin 2mo ago
  > Perhaps the tendency to complain is a necessity to achieve a high level of efficiency. I am pretty convinced about that. Especially after having lived and worked in other countries where people like to complain less. If people will just accept and not complain, problems also will not get fixed.
zelphirkalt 2mo ago
Germany has been shifting wealth from middle class and lower class to the rich for a long time now and is at the forefront of inequality increase in Europe. All the xenophobia and polarization is happening for a reason. The people are no longer happy with their lives here. It is a result of decades of bad politicians and policies, bad election results, and mismanagement of the whole country and immigration and integration policies. Getting out shit together will require a massive mindset change, that personally I don't really see coming. We can forget all the mainstream parties like CDU, SPD, Greens, AFD, Left. They won't and don't want to bring us out of this situation. What they will do is continue the course of retiree pleasing policies, to catch tons of votes, while the rest of the country continues to go to shit.
- roysting 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - zelphirkalt 2mo ago
    I just copied the term from the parent post of my earlier post. In German I would have chosen "Auslaenderfeindlichkeit", which might fit a bit better. And yes, it can be irrational. I still do believe, that most people coming to Germany actually want to work for a better life. Just the problem being, that it is hard to make that happen, with Germany's failing integration and assimilation policies.
    - roysting 2mo ago
      [flagged]
    - roysting 2mo ago
      [dead]
  - anal_reactor 2mo ago
    [flagged]
- 2mo ago
roysting 2mo ago
[flagged]
- defrost 2mo ago
  as various people said following the Gesellschaft für Deutsche Kolonisation adventures abroad?
throwaway2037 2mo ago
> I grew up in a Germany where it didn't matter where you came from or what you looked like. This is bullshit. Ask any Turkish heritage person who grew up in Germany before the 2010s. It was rough. You basically lived in a parallel society.

by ovb39 2mo ago

mr_mitm 2mo ago

I, a German, went to Switzerland for vacation once. I talked to a Swiss guy about how I like Switzerland and all that. I told him how impressed I was with how organized everything is and how well everything works. The train system and public transport in general is wonderful compared to the one we have in Germany, for example. To my surprise, he said something along the line of "yeah well, it only looks like that from the outside". Perhaps the tendency to complain is a necessity to achieve a high level of efficiency.

Gud 2mo ago
I moved from Sweden to Switzerland, and I don't know what that guy was talking about. Switzerland is an extremely well run country.
- shutyourhole 2mo ago
  [dead]
- 4ggr0 2mo ago
  I mean it helps that there's around 9M people living there, 1/10th of Germany or about the same amount as London or New York. Also helps to accumulate wealth by taking care of global blood-money and being a diplomatic hub :) and let's not forget the tons of gold we got gifted about a hundred years ago, sadly can't quite remember where we got that from.
  - scotty79 2mo ago
    > Also helps to accumulate wealth by taking care of global blood-money and being a diplomatic hub People say that, but ETFs that invest into plain old boring sectors of Swiss industry give long term returns half way between USA AI insanity and everything else in the world. So they must be doing something right with their industrial economy as well.
    - 4ggr0 2mo ago
      we got some huge, international companies here. pharma, banks, insurance, food and beverages, resource trading and a more-or-less stable political system. https://companiesmarketcap.com/switzerland/largest-companies-in-switzerland-by-market-cap/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/switzerland/largest-companies...
  - Gud 2mo ago
    It also helps that Switzerland has a decentralized and direct democratic system of governance. The rest is just noise.
- lynx97 2mo ago
  I suspect natives have a more nuanced view of their home country, compared to expats who end up getting a tinted view. At least it likely takes a long time for an outsider to truly understand how things work. Reading the newspapers isn't representative, you know...
  - throw-the-towel 2mo ago
    The natives have their own biases.
    - lynx97 2mo ago
      If you call "must more anecodtal knowledge" a bias, I give you that.
zelphirkalt 2mo ago
Do you know, that by now Switzerland frequently refuses German trains to enter the country, because of delays? They don't want Deutsche Bahn mismanagement and delays to affect their own train network. Very reasonable to put a stop to this.
- mr_mitm 2mo ago
  Yes
- aix1 2mo ago
  What they do is very interesting, though IMO "refuse to enter the country" sounds harsher than it actually is. If an inbound German train is late to Basel by more than 20 minutes, the Swiss run their own substitute train from Basel (they keep rolling stock on standby). The replacement train runs to the original timetable so that local passengers are unaffected. The late train is then pulled out of service at Basel (there are frequent onward connections). They do something similar at Schaffhausen. Trains that are late into St. Margrethen are made to queue behind local traffic.
  - a2tech 2mo ago
    That sounds like an excellent solution for locals. But it also seems very inefficient because of the need to keep rolling stock in reserve, ready to go just in case. That’s a lot of maintenance, staff, and machine time to burn.
    - aleph_minus_one 2mo ago
      > But it also seems very inefficient because of the need to keep rolling stock in reserve, ready to go just in case. That’s a lot of maintenance, staff, and machine time to burn. Considering how often the Deutsche Bahn isn't on time (I say this as a German), the SBB should have use for this rolling stock nearly all the time - so it's rather efficient. :-)
    - aix1 2mo ago
      It was the locals who decided that it was worth the extra hassle and expense (and that doing the same thing at St. Margrethen wasn't). There was probably a referendum at some point. :) I am not sure whether the stats are comparable, but I read somewhere that about half of Deutsche Bahn trains are late into Basel (and there are many trains a day). While I don't know this for a fact, it wouldn't surpise me if patterns of delays are relatively predictable and can be planned for. There was some talk about just ending those routes at Basel at some far-away point in the future, but I'm not sure if that's something that's been decided.
herbst 2mo ago
Swiss people often don't see how awesome swiss is themself except they have been away for a longer while to see how shitty every other place tends to be. Ex. Most people here think Europe is generally this clean. They never bothered looking out of their car in literally any other neighbor country. Source: Austria living in Switzerland who also lived in Thailand, Malaysia, Czech, .. for a while.
poisonborz 2mo ago
A normal sized plot with a house listed to be torn down on in outskirts of Zurich costs 7mil. A 2 bedroom apartment on the countryside costs 2mil. You will not pay this in a lifetime from 2 good level swiss salaries.
- stephenhuey 2mo ago
  Are you Swiss? I'm no expert but from talking to Swiss people, their mortgage system is very different from the American one, and people are in no hurry to pay off their mortgages, and often they're never really paid off. Americans might find that appalling but the Swiss people I've spoken to find it normal. Tax incentives also help with this.
  - poisonborz 2mo ago
    It is the UK/Nordic system which I find morbidly bad. It already assumes you will never pay off the property and you pass it down to family and children, possibly multiple generations. It allows for property prices to go to the moon instead of incentivising for affordability. Makes for a system giving up owning property. How did we humans come to this.
    - DANmode 2mo ago
      Allowing financial system abstraction on one end, and allowing our brains to rot on the other.
pjmlp 2mo ago
As southern European that has lived a couple of years in Switzerland and eventually moved into Germany, I always mention that from flexibility and rules point of view, being in Germany versus Switzerland, feels so much better in Germany. Sorry for the stereotypes, it was just how it felt dealing with everything, which is how everything gets to be so organised in first place, and the difference on similar matters in Germany, still I go back into Switzerland with some regularity.
- ivell 2mo ago
  Swiss voted against tax reduction in the past. I do not know of that many countries, where people would have done that. So the way they think is a bit different. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/poison-withholding-tax-vote-sunday-sept-25-poison/47902484 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/poison-withholding-tax...
  - 1718627440 2mo ago
    If you have a high ROI it's a bad idea to stop putting money in. Logically all people should be for high taxes, but they are not, because they don't believe that their taxes fund things they profit from and that it's easier to put less money in, then to fix that.
dranudin 2mo ago
> Perhaps the tendency to complain is a necessity to achieve a high level of efficiency. I am pretty convinced about that. Especially after having lived and worked in other countries where people like to complain less. If people will just accept and not complain, problems also will not get fixed.

zelphirkalt 2mo ago

Germany has been shifting wealth from middle class and lower class to the rich for a long time now and is at the forefront of inequality increase in Europe. All the xenophobia and polarization is happening for a reason. The people are no longer happy with their lives here. It is a result of decades of bad politicians and policies, bad election results, and mismanagement of the whole country and immigration and integration policies. Getting out shit together will require a massive mindset change, that personally I don't really see coming. We can forget all the mainstream parties like CDU, SPD, Greens, AFD, Left. They won't and don't want to bring us out of this situation. What they will do is continue the course of retiree pleasing policies, to catch tons of votes, while the rest of the country continues to go to shit.

roysting 2mo ago
[flagged]
- zelphirkalt 2mo ago
  I just copied the term from the parent post of my earlier post. In German I would have chosen "Auslaenderfeindlichkeit", which might fit a bit better. And yes, it can be irrational. I still do believe, that most people coming to Germany actually want to work for a better life. Just the problem being, that it is hard to make that happen, with Germany's failing integration and assimilation policies.
  - roysting 2mo ago
    [flagged]
  - roysting 2mo ago
    [dead]
- anal_reactor 2mo ago
  [flagged]
2mo ago

roysting 2mo ago

[flagged]

defrost 2mo ago
as various people said following the Gesellschaft für Deutsche Kolonisation adventures abroad?

throwaway2037 2mo ago

> I grew up in a Germany where it didn't matter where you came from or what you looked like. This is bullshit. Ask any Turkish heritage person who grew up in Germany before the 2010s. It was rough. You basically lived in a parallel society.