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This is basically Christian apologetics. We've collectively thought we were special for so long that must now go through increasingly complex mental gymnastics

This is basically Christian apologetics. We've collectively thought we were special for so long that must now go through increasingly complex mental gymnastics to prove to ourselves that we are somehow uniquely sentient, despite increasing evidence to the contrary.

randomImmigrant 2mo ago
This is neuroscience. I don't give a damn about Christianity. And nothing here says humans are special. Only that biology broadly is different than computing.
- DiscourseFan 2mo ago
  I agree that it's a bit reductionist to boil this down entirely to "Christian Apologetics," I think you'd have to do some serious rationalizations to see how the notion of human finitude, time as the limit of cognition, is not originally a Christian notion, or at least is not informed by secular interpretations of theology such as the first place where this claim is made, Being and Time. Which is even more interesting because even Heidegger moved away from time as binding finitude and eventually came to the position that cybernetics would replace philosophy, that fundamental ontology would not withstand technological advancement.
- elendilm 2mo ago
  Yet, evolution, the foundation of modern biology is easily simulated by any decent coder in 10 minutes - lookup weasel program. The audacity to still claim biology is broadly different than computing is commendable.
  - ChrisGreenHeur 2mo ago
    Evolution is very far from just being natural selection. It’s a quite complicated field with many mechanisms. And when simulated on a computer we have not gotten anything similar to real biology yet. So we have more to learn.
    - elendilm 2mo ago
      No. Only 3 mechanics: replication, mutation and natural selection. Write a weasel program and you will see for yourself. current = "XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" target = "THE LORD OF THE RINGS" loop { replicas = replication(current) replicas = mutation(replicas) current = naturalSelection(replicas) print("generation", i, current) if (current == target) break } You can thus make "Dog" turn into a "Cat". I rest my case :)
      - lioeters 2mo ago
        There have been experiments in "digital primordial soup", where primitive programs are cultivated under conditions with evolutionary pressure. Computational Substrates: How Well-formed, Self-replicating Programs Emerge from Simple Interaction - https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.19108 https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.19108 Brainfuck, Forth, Subleq, and most recently Z80 assembly programs with mutations, interactions, and self-modification. Z80 has an LDIR instruction that copies a block of data from one location in memory to another, which allows the "organisms" to reach/discover reproduction quicker and more reliably in repeated experiments. As soon as that happens, it inevitably takes over the "world". Hm, sounds more like "Lord of the Flies" than Rings.
        elendilm 2mo ago
        The Paper's Scope: Abiogenesis (how self replicating programs emerge). My Scope: Evolution proper (what happens after a replicator exists). Once a self-replicating entity exists, the Weasel loop takes over. Conflating the origin of replicators with the mechanics of evolution itself mixes up two different things. Laws of logic dictates if you can demonstrate E with R, M and N, then any additional variable is neither sufficient nor necessary. From a strict theory-of-computation standpoint, if the core loop can be executed in code, then biological evolution is fundamentally an informational process, not a mystical "biological-only" phenomenon. > As soon as that happens, it inevitably takes over the "world". Agreed :). Looking forward to an epic battle of the pelennor fields. > sounds more like "Lord of the Flies" than Rings. Thats hilarious. "Lord of the Flies" it shall be henceforth :))
      - 2mo ago
- RussianBot9580 2mo ago
  I didn't mean Christianity, I meant Chesterton and Aquinas. Very elaborate explanations, great arguments, good writing - all to justify a failed model of the world.
Mikhail_Edoshin 2mo ago
Special, yes, but mostly because we were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Our specialness is meant to be humbling.

randomImmigrant 2mo ago

This is neuroscience. I don't give a damn about Christianity. And nothing here says humans are special. Only that biology broadly is different than computing.

DiscourseFan 2mo ago
I agree that it's a bit reductionist to boil this down entirely to "Christian Apologetics," I think you'd have to do some serious rationalizations to see how the notion of human finitude, time as the limit of cognition, is not originally a Christian notion, or at least is not informed by secular interpretations of theology such as the first place where this claim is made, Being and Time. Which is even more interesting because even Heidegger moved away from time as binding finitude and eventually came to the position that cybernetics would replace philosophy, that fundamental ontology would not withstand technological advancement.
elendilm 2mo ago
Yet, evolution, the foundation of modern biology is easily simulated by any decent coder in 10 minutes - lookup weasel program. The audacity to still claim biology is broadly different than computing is commendable.
- ChrisGreenHeur 2mo ago
  Evolution is very far from just being natural selection. It’s a quite complicated field with many mechanisms. And when simulated on a computer we have not gotten anything similar to real biology yet. So we have more to learn.
  - elendilm 2mo ago
    No. Only 3 mechanics: replication, mutation and natural selection. Write a weasel program and you will see for yourself. current = "XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" target = "THE LORD OF THE RINGS" loop { replicas = replication(current) replicas = mutation(replicas) current = naturalSelection(replicas) print("generation", i, current) if (current == target) break } You can thus make "Dog" turn into a "Cat". I rest my case :)
    - lioeters 2mo ago
      There have been experiments in "digital primordial soup", where primitive programs are cultivated under conditions with evolutionary pressure. Computational Substrates: How Well-formed, Self-replicating Programs Emerge from Simple Interaction - https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.19108 https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.19108 Brainfuck, Forth, Subleq, and most recently Z80 assembly programs with mutations, interactions, and self-modification. Z80 has an LDIR instruction that copies a block of data from one location in memory to another, which allows the "organisms" to reach/discover reproduction quicker and more reliably in repeated experiments. As soon as that happens, it inevitably takes over the "world". Hm, sounds more like "Lord of the Flies" than Rings.
      - elendilm 2mo ago
        The Paper's Scope: Abiogenesis (how self replicating programs emerge). My Scope: Evolution proper (what happens after a replicator exists). Once a self-replicating entity exists, the Weasel loop takes over. Conflating the origin of replicators with the mechanics of evolution itself mixes up two different things. Laws of logic dictates if you can demonstrate E with R, M and N, then any additional variable is neither sufficient nor necessary. From a strict theory-of-computation standpoint, if the core loop can be executed in code, then biological evolution is fundamentally an informational process, not a mystical "biological-only" phenomenon. > As soon as that happens, it inevitably takes over the "world". Agreed :). Looking forward to an epic battle of the pelennor fields. > sounds more like "Lord of the Flies" than Rings. Thats hilarious. "Lord of the Flies" it shall be henceforth :))
    - 2mo ago
RussianBot9580 2mo ago
I didn't mean Christianity, I meant Chesterton and Aquinas. Very elaborate explanations, great arguments, good writing - all to justify a failed model of the world.

Mikhail_Edoshin 2mo ago

Special, yes, but mostly because we were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Our specialness is meant to be humbling.