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In one of my college courses, 100% of my fellow students cheated, including me. This is when I learned that virtually every person is deep down a liar and a che

In one of my college courses, 100% of my fellow students cheated, including me. This is when I learned that virtually every person is deep down a liar and a cheat if they think they won't face consequences and it's in their benefit, and any public facade of virtue that people put up, common in this industry, is a manipulation strategy that is just more cheating, although of a different kind.

robomc 3mo ago
i don't even understand the benefit of cheating on a college course, unless you think you're going to fail
- energy123 3mo ago
  More job opportunities due to better grades. It's not mutually exclusive with learning the material, it's just an additional bump.
  - robomc 2mo ago
    Do employers in the US look at your university marks?
- Groxx 3mo ago
  Yea, same. I had many opportunities in college (who doesn't?), never did. It's not hard, you just need to actually try to learn. If I was in a course where it was so poorly taught that cheating was the only feasible way to pass, I'd go talk to the dean. Things like that don't get fixed unless people complain, because how would anyone making decisions know? It sometimes works, there's no reason to leave stuff like that for the next group of people to suffer through too. E.g. I'm extremely proud of my wife for this kind of thing, as she managed to get nearly a whole class to complain about an awful pseudo-science-pushing teacher, and got them kicked out in fairly short order.
  - iamflimflam1 2mo ago
    Most low level petty fraud or criminal enterprises appear to involve ludicrous amounts of work. You’d be better off actually doing a normal job. Yet some people prefer the former.
- crummy 3mo ago
  I remember taking general ed classes in college that I didn't want to do but had to to get required credits.
ninjagoo 3mo ago
> This is when I learned that virtually every person is deep down a liar and a cheat if they think they won't face consequences I would argue that the opposite is true, that people are more likely to lie or cheat to avoid consequences, especially significant consequences. This is why, the aviation industry that has made commercial flying safer than other transportation modes, grants immunity for reporting incidents [1]. [1] https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/immunity.html https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/immunity.html
zippyman55 3mo ago
At my federal job, there was a student intern position that was available. The only requirement was a 3.0 gpa or better. Unofficial transcripts were submitted each semester. One day they asked for official ones and eight people immediately quit.
- rootsudo 3mo ago
  Tbf it costs $5-20 to submit official transcripts. Paying an amount to qualify for an interview for a position may be too much. I understand what you’re inferring, just official transcripts aren’t free or easy enough.
  - zippyman55 2mo ago
    I guess they were printing their grades and then fat fingering them to inflate their grades. I get your point, but it drives home how people can cheat if there’s a way. Probably the employer could fork over the fees to verify the grades would rectify most of this.
cataphract 3mo ago
I don't think that's the lesson. What I take from that is that people adapt to norms and incentives they have. Despite all the talk about "academic integrity" and whatnot, very rarely were there punishments for people who cheated. For every professor that wrote FRAUD in the grade sheet and escalated to the Disciplinary Committee, there were 100 that turned a blind eye or at most confiscated a paper being passed around when the exam was being administered. This hypocrisy irked me much more than the cheating itself, in which I didn't partake mostly because 1) I thought it was kind of beneath me, something only mediocre students did (which I came to realize was not really true) and 2) I didn't care that much about the grade.
- SoftTalker 3mo ago
  Probably because most of those professors had themselves cheated or plagiarized work when they were students.
- Grimeton 2mo ago
  "Academic integrity" https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session62/advance-versions/a-hrc-62-67-add-1-auv.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies...
jancsika 3mo ago
I take this comment as a cautionary tale about just how big a problem the p-hacking issue can be in the social sciences.

robomc 3mo ago

i don't even understand the benefit of cheating on a college course, unless you think you're going to fail

energy123 3mo ago
More job opportunities due to better grades. It's not mutually exclusive with learning the material, it's just an additional bump.
- robomc 2mo ago
  Do employers in the US look at your university marks?
Groxx 3mo ago
Yea, same. I had many opportunities in college (who doesn't?), never did. It's not hard, you just need to actually try to learn. If I was in a course where it was so poorly taught that cheating was the only feasible way to pass, I'd go talk to the dean. Things like that don't get fixed unless people complain, because how would anyone making decisions know? It sometimes works, there's no reason to leave stuff like that for the next group of people to suffer through too. E.g. I'm extremely proud of my wife for this kind of thing, as she managed to get nearly a whole class to complain about an awful pseudo-science-pushing teacher, and got them kicked out in fairly short order.
- iamflimflam1 2mo ago
  Most low level petty fraud or criminal enterprises appear to involve ludicrous amounts of work. You’d be better off actually doing a normal job. Yet some people prefer the former.
crummy 3mo ago
I remember taking general ed classes in college that I didn't want to do but had to to get required credits.

ninjagoo 3mo ago

> This is when I learned that virtually every person is deep down a liar and a cheat if they think they won't face consequences I would argue that the opposite is true, that people are more likely to lie or cheat to avoid consequences, especially significant consequences. This is why, the aviation industry that has made commercial flying safer than other transportation modes, grants immunity for reporting incidents [1]. [1] https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/immunity.html https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/immunity.html

zippyman55 3mo ago

At my federal job, there was a student intern position that was available. The only requirement was a 3.0 gpa or better. Unofficial transcripts were submitted each semester. One day they asked for official ones and eight people immediately quit.

rootsudo 3mo ago
Tbf it costs $5-20 to submit official transcripts. Paying an amount to qualify for an interview for a position may be too much. I understand what you’re inferring, just official transcripts aren’t free or easy enough.
- zippyman55 2mo ago
  I guess they were printing their grades and then fat fingering them to inflate their grades. I get your point, but it drives home how people can cheat if there’s a way. Probably the employer could fork over the fees to verify the grades would rectify most of this.

cataphract 3mo ago

I don't think that's the lesson. What I take from that is that people adapt to norms and incentives they have. Despite all the talk about "academic integrity" and whatnot, very rarely were there punishments for people who cheated. For every professor that wrote FRAUD in the grade sheet and escalated to the Disciplinary Committee, there were 100 that turned a blind eye or at most confiscated a paper being passed around when the exam was being administered. This hypocrisy irked me much more than the cheating itself, in which I didn't partake mostly because 1) I thought it was kind of beneath me, something only mediocre students did (which I came to realize was not really true) and 2) I didn't care that much about the grade.

SoftTalker 3mo ago
Probably because most of those professors had themselves cheated or plagiarized work when they were students.
Grimeton 2mo ago
"Academic integrity" https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session62/advance-versions/a-hrc-62-67-add-1-auv.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies...

jancsika 3mo ago

I take this comment as a cautionary tale about just how big a problem the p-hacking issue can be in the social sciences.