4 ms·

That's because the lever doesn't contain the shitty working conditions, danger, pressure, back-to-back shifts, forced overtime, and the knowledge that even that

That's because the lever doesn't contain the shitty working conditions, danger, pressure, back-to-back shifts, forced overtime, and the knowledge that even that pitiful machine can be snatched away from you at the whim of bastards, and society will blame it on you.

ctdonath 14y ago
democraticunderground.com is thataway. This is ycombinator.com, where people know they can improve their working conditions and get rich even if they are in rough conditions. Grimy work, risks, pressure, 100 hour weeks (making "overtime" laughable), and knowing it could/will all come crashing down - and all with society blaming you - is what you make of it.
- JulianMorrison 14y ago
  Imagine society as being like an array of arrays of humans. There's lots of levels, but there's a clear trend where low numbered arrays are large and high numbered arrays are small. Some of the arrays aren't full, and there's an operation where you can swap up to the array above you if there's a gap. And it's theoretically true for a number of swaps to carry you all the way up to the very short arrays up top. But there is no particular operation to grow the width of an array, in fact the high numbered ones have been getting more cramped. So the trajectory of any one human might end right the top, and you can guarantee some humans definitely will, but the expected trajectory of a human is stagnation in the low numbered arrays. This should make you understand why the American Dream is a cruel and manipulative lie on the population level, even as it's undeniably true on the individual level. Also note: the only thing meritocracy adds to the above is competition for the level swaps. Assuming it works perfectly, it becomes a bubble sort, where the humans with most merit semi-randomly bubble up into the highest numbered arrays. The arrays do not become larger. And now you've told the people in the low numbered arrays that they deserve all the crap they're getting.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    >And now you've told the people in the low numbered arrays that they deserve all the crap they're getting. Well, a privileged upper array member to feel that way is somewhat tolerable. The worst for me is when some idiot from the lowest numbered arrays, by an enormous combination of factors (which he mostly attributes to his "hard work" and "effort"), jumps several levels up, and then assumes that everybody can do it, and the other lower levels are just lazy slobs for not becoming rich themselves...
    - JulianMorrison 14y ago
      Yeah. Although the thing that model warns is that even if everybody was perfect on merit - smart, educated, adaptable, personable, hard working and lucky - only the same percentage of them will rise. All merit gives you in this rat race is first call on the opportunity to rise. Of course this is an over-simplified model. In real life the stratification of society is a bit flexible. A great many people could rise to CEO without saturating the demand. But by no means everybody.
- joonix 14y ago
  You show a real lack of empathy and perspective here.
  - ctdonath 14y ago
    I've spent a lot of time trying to lift people out of such conditions. Crushing realization of reality: most of them don't want to improve. Give them every opportunity and resource, and they squander it. Incredibly un-PC to say so, but nonetheless there it is.
    - joonix 14y ago
      I don't think it's un-PC. I'm sure you are right. The point is, you look at the family, culture and environments they were brought up in and you understand where that mentality is bred.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >democraticunderground.com is thataway. This is ycombinator.com, where people know they can improve their working conditions and get rich even if they are in rough conditions. Yes. Where mostly white people of college education with supportive families and friends know they can "improve their situation". What a feat... As for "getting rich", if they "know" that, then they are idiots. Most of them won't get anywhere near rich, the same way most startups fail. Oh, and "100 hour weeks" programming in a startup (which I've done myself lots of times), is BS for spoiled boys and girls compared to "100 hour weeks" (and months and years) actual poor people have to work soul-crushing jobs, not as a "bet" to get rich but just to survive day to day life and feed their family.
joonix 14y ago
Good time for me to relate the story of the postal worker I met today. It was 4:30PM. She had been at work since 4AM - gets up at 2:30am from a long commute (from a more affordable area). From what she told me, she does it every day. It could be seasonal, but the point is, even during the holidays, working 13 hour shifts every day isn't acceptable. Nevertheless she was quite energetic and chipper, I really admire her ability to put on a smile in those conditions. This was at the postal service, much less. A sort of quasi-government corporation chartered by Congress. We need to take a hard look at the labor situation in this country, especially on the lower ends of the totem pole.
- ctdonath 14y ago
  I've had students in similar situations. They found a way and learned C++. Those who want to, can.
- theorique 14y ago
  Don't postal workers have a significant union, government-grade pension and benefits, and so forth? I would wager that this worker was earning much more than minimum wage, as well as overtime for >8h days.

ctdonath 14y ago

democraticunderground.com is thataway. This is ycombinator.com, where people know they can improve their working conditions and get rich even if they are in rough conditions. Grimy work, risks, pressure, 100 hour weeks (making "overtime" laughable), and knowing it could/will all come crashing down - and all with society blaming you - is what you make of it.

JulianMorrison 14y ago
Imagine society as being like an array of arrays of humans. There's lots of levels, but there's a clear trend where low numbered arrays are large and high numbered arrays are small. Some of the arrays aren't full, and there's an operation where you can swap up to the array above you if there's a gap. And it's theoretically true for a number of swaps to carry you all the way up to the very short arrays up top. But there is no particular operation to grow the width of an array, in fact the high numbered ones have been getting more cramped. So the trajectory of any one human might end right the top, and you can guarantee some humans definitely will, but the expected trajectory of a human is stagnation in the low numbered arrays. This should make you understand why the American Dream is a cruel and manipulative lie on the population level, even as it's undeniably true on the individual level. Also note: the only thing meritocracy adds to the above is competition for the level swaps. Assuming it works perfectly, it becomes a bubble sort, where the humans with most merit semi-randomly bubble up into the highest numbered arrays. The arrays do not become larger. And now you've told the people in the low numbered arrays that they deserve all the crap they're getting.
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  >And now you've told the people in the low numbered arrays that they deserve all the crap they're getting. Well, a privileged upper array member to feel that way is somewhat tolerable. The worst for me is when some idiot from the lowest numbered arrays, by an enormous combination of factors (which he mostly attributes to his "hard work" and "effort"), jumps several levels up, and then assumes that everybody can do it, and the other lower levels are just lazy slobs for not becoming rich themselves...
  - JulianMorrison 14y ago
    Yeah. Although the thing that model warns is that even if everybody was perfect on merit - smart, educated, adaptable, personable, hard working and lucky - only the same percentage of them will rise. All merit gives you in this rat race is first call on the opportunity to rise. Of course this is an over-simplified model. In real life the stratification of society is a bit flexible. A great many people could rise to CEO without saturating the demand. But by no means everybody.
joonix 14y ago
You show a real lack of empathy and perspective here.
- ctdonath 14y ago
  I've spent a lot of time trying to lift people out of such conditions. Crushing realization of reality: most of them don't want to improve. Give them every opportunity and resource, and they squander it. Incredibly un-PC to say so, but nonetheless there it is.
  - joonix 14y ago
    I don't think it's un-PC. I'm sure you are right. The point is, you look at the family, culture and environments they were brought up in and you understand where that mentality is bred.
pretoriusB 14y ago
>democraticunderground.com is thataway. This is ycombinator.com, where people know they can improve their working conditions and get rich even if they are in rough conditions. Yes. Where mostly white people of college education with supportive families and friends know they can "improve their situation". What a feat... As for "getting rich", if they "know" that, then they are idiots. Most of them won't get anywhere near rich, the same way most startups fail. Oh, and "100 hour weeks" programming in a startup (which I've done myself lots of times), is BS for spoiled boys and girls compared to "100 hour weeks" (and months and years) actual poor people have to work soul-crushing jobs, not as a "bet" to get rich but just to survive day to day life and feed their family.

joonix 14y ago

Good time for me to relate the story of the postal worker I met today. It was 4:30PM. She had been at work since 4AM - gets up at 2:30am from a long commute (from a more affordable area). From what she told me, she does it every day. It could be seasonal, but the point is, even during the holidays, working 13 hour shifts every day isn't acceptable. Nevertheless she was quite energetic and chipper, I really admire her ability to put on a smile in those conditions. This was at the postal service, much less. A sort of quasi-government corporation chartered by Congress. We need to take a hard look at the labor situation in this country, especially on the lower ends of the totem pole.

ctdonath 14y ago
I've had students in similar situations. They found a way and learned C++. Those who want to, can.
theorique 14y ago
Don't postal workers have a significant union, government-grade pension and benefits, and so forth? I would wager that this worker was earning much more than minimum wage, as well as overtime for >8h days.