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So it looks like all this drama was much ado about nothing. CodeHero just posted a response to all of this: http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues http://

So it looks like all this drama was much ado about nothing. CodeHero just posted a response to all of this: http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues Can you believe this mess was all initiated by one guy boasting about filing a class action lawsuit? I can see why lawyers make the most money in America... when someone is inconvenienced, their first course of action is to threaten with a lawsuit.

nowarninglabel 14y ago
Well, to be fair, the threat led to the desired action, an update on progress (that apparently was not forthcoming despite many requests, only the threat made them actually update the public).
leviathant 14y ago
Looking at the comments linked to here, I see a series of actions, culminating in tossing around the idea of a class action lawsuit. I run a forum about a band with creative fans who sometimes want to go to market with some band-related idea - unofficial posters, tshirts, videos... In the mid-2000s, pre-kickstarter, one or two of these people took pre-orders, got completely overwhelmed, and screwed up badly despite good intentions. In the case of the fellow selling tshirts, many great efforts were made to reach out just for some honest communication. He was happily taking pre-order money, but wasn't replying to any emails about why tshirts weren't being shipped on time, if at all. After several months of asking, someone in the forum sought out the District Attorney in the town where these shirts were being sold. All the forum whining in the world did nothing, but the District Attorney got everyone either a refund or a shirt. I think that if you've paid money for a promised product and haven't received it, and go for an extended period of time without honest communication, it's absolutely fair to get the law involved. That's what it's there for. To make it out that calls for a class action in December are somehow the first course of action for not getting results from a Kickstarter that closed in February is misleading and doesn't really help anything.
- Heliosmaster 14y ago
  > I think that if you've paid money for a promised product and haven't received it, and go for an extended period of time without honest communication, it's absolutely fair to get the law involved. That's what it's there for. If I remember correctly some weeks ago Kickstarter changed its terms and rules for running a campaign, in order to stress out that these are not pre-orders but just donations. You might receive something in return for this donation (i.e. the funded project thanks you for believing in him), but there's no way to be sure that you are actually going to get anything. The problem is what people expected when they pledged money: they thought they were pre-ordering.. nope. They were just donating.
  - alexkus 14y ago
    The lawyer-ish response to that would be that such a change could be considered an admission that, at the time of the original campaign, the T&Cs weren't clear on this matter and that some people therefore had expectations of a guaranteed return on their pledge. It doesn't matter what the T&Cs say now.
  - jbri 14y ago
    It gets a little more interesting when you're promising tangible rewards in addition to completing the project. For instance, if I say "$50 will get you a T-Shirt", it seems reasonable to me that I am contractually obligated to give you a T-Shirt even if I am unable to follow through on completing the game to the desired standard. The extra rewards certainly seem like more than just a "donation".
  - dragonwriter 14y ago
    <blockquote>If I remember correctly some weeks ago Kickstarter changed its terms and rules for running a campaign, in order to stress out that these are not pre-orders but just donations. </blockquote> The current rules on Kickstarter provide an obligation to provide the reward or refund the backer, so the model is still (by the terms) more like a sale than a donation. There's a "good faith effort" requirement regarding the estimated date on which the rewards will be provided, but that's really not that unusual for sales-type contracts.

nowarninglabel 14y ago

Well, to be fair, the threat led to the desired action, an update on progress (that apparently was not forthcoming despite many requests, only the threat made them actually update the public).

leviathant 14y ago

Looking at the comments linked to here, I see a series of actions, culminating in tossing around the idea of a class action lawsuit. I run a forum about a band with creative fans who sometimes want to go to market with some band-related idea - unofficial posters, tshirts, videos... In the mid-2000s, pre-kickstarter, one or two of these people took pre-orders, got completely overwhelmed, and screwed up badly despite good intentions. In the case of the fellow selling tshirts, many great efforts were made to reach out just for some honest communication. He was happily taking pre-order money, but wasn't replying to any emails about why tshirts weren't being shipped on time, if at all. After several months of asking, someone in the forum sought out the District Attorney in the town where these shirts were being sold. All the forum whining in the world did nothing, but the District Attorney got everyone either a refund or a shirt. I think that if you've paid money for a promised product and haven't received it, and go for an extended period of time without honest communication, it's absolutely fair to get the law involved. That's what it's there for. To make it out that calls for a class action in December are somehow the first course of action for not getting results from a Kickstarter that closed in February is misleading and doesn't really help anything.

Heliosmaster 14y ago
> I think that if you've paid money for a promised product and haven't received it, and go for an extended period of time without honest communication, it's absolutely fair to get the law involved. That's what it's there for. If I remember correctly some weeks ago Kickstarter changed its terms and rules for running a campaign, in order to stress out that these are not pre-orders but just donations. You might receive something in return for this donation (i.e. the funded project thanks you for believing in him), but there's no way to be sure that you are actually going to get anything. The problem is what people expected when they pledged money: they thought they were pre-ordering.. nope. They were just donating.
- alexkus 14y ago
  The lawyer-ish response to that would be that such a change could be considered an admission that, at the time of the original campaign, the T&Cs weren't clear on this matter and that some people therefore had expectations of a guaranteed return on their pledge. It doesn't matter what the T&Cs say now.
- jbri 14y ago
  It gets a little more interesting when you're promising tangible rewards in addition to completing the project. For instance, if I say "$50 will get you a T-Shirt", it seems reasonable to me that I am contractually obligated to give you a T-Shirt even if I am unable to follow through on completing the game to the desired standard. The extra rewards certainly seem like more than just a "donation".
- dragonwriter 14y ago
  <blockquote>If I remember correctly some weeks ago Kickstarter changed its terms and rules for running a campaign, in order to stress out that these are not pre-orders but just donations. </blockquote> The current rules on Kickstarter provide an obligation to provide the reward or refund the backer, so the model is still (by the terms) more like a sale than a donation. There's a "good faith effort" requirement regarding the estimated date on which the rewards will be provided, but that's really not that unusual for sales-type contracts.