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Embodiment doesn't exist, even in regular humans. We do not have direct access to reality; we have sensory inputs that are much lower bandwidth than one might e

by scarmig 2mo ago

Embodiment doesn't exist, even in regular humans. We do not have direct access to reality; we have sensory inputs that are much lower bandwidth than one might expect but correlate with external events, and our brain uses them to form rich world models that are usefully predictive. Most of the world we experience is just in our head.

logicallee 2mo ago
I get what you're saying (mostly based on low bandwidth from sensory organs as opposed to direct access to reality), but your conclusion that we therefore don't have embodiment goes very far. It would be like saying planes don't really fly, since they fly by wire and only have limited inputs and outputs, rather than direct access to reality itself. Well, yeah, they fly using sensors rather than knowing reality itself, but they're still flying. Humans still obviously have embodiment.
- tim333 2mo ago
  I'm not quite sure of the definitions but with sentience I have >Subjective Experience: Involves raw sensory awareness rather than complex abstract thought On that current AI is a bit lacking as they don't have very good sensors whereas human brains are pretty wired up for touch, smell, sight, sound and the like. AIs do get linked to cameras though and could improve a lot in those directions.
  - scarmig 2mo ago
    > On that current AI is a bit lacking as they don't have very good sensors whereas human brains are pretty wired up for touch, smell, sight, sound and the like. For sight and sound, the sensory input layer for AIs is much, much richer in terms of bitrate, though is redundant. > AIs do get linked to cameras though and could improve a lot in those directions. Video is an interesting one, as most AI systems use the full pixel information of a scene, while human vision is much more temporal, focusing primarily on logistic deltas rather than raw pixels. That's not inherent to hardware (e.g. see event or "neuromorphic" cameras), but it's a significant difference. My more sympathetic reading of embodiment is that the relative paucity of the human sensory stream is part of what makes us work better than current AI in many domains, in that it forces us to form richer, temporal world models from a low bitrate stream of salient events instead of relying on shallow responses to rich sensory data.
yladiz 2mo ago
Define “direct”, “access”, and “reality”.
andai 2mo ago
Well here's a fun one. If the outside is simulated, why not the inside?

by scarmig 2mo ago

logicallee 2mo ago

I get what you're saying (mostly based on low bandwidth from sensory organs as opposed to direct access to reality), but your conclusion that we therefore don't have embodiment goes very far. It would be like saying planes don't really fly, since they fly by wire and only have limited inputs and outputs, rather than direct access to reality itself. Well, yeah, they fly using sensors rather than knowing reality itself, but they're still flying. Humans still obviously have embodiment.

tim333 2mo ago
I'm not quite sure of the definitions but with sentience I have >Subjective Experience: Involves raw sensory awareness rather than complex abstract thought On that current AI is a bit lacking as they don't have very good sensors whereas human brains are pretty wired up for touch, smell, sight, sound and the like. AIs do get linked to cameras though and could improve a lot in those directions.
- scarmig 2mo ago
  > On that current AI is a bit lacking as they don't have very good sensors whereas human brains are pretty wired up for touch, smell, sight, sound and the like. For sight and sound, the sensory input layer for AIs is much, much richer in terms of bitrate, though is redundant. > AIs do get linked to cameras though and could improve a lot in those directions. Video is an interesting one, as most AI systems use the full pixel information of a scene, while human vision is much more temporal, focusing primarily on logistic deltas rather than raw pixels. That's not inherent to hardware (e.g. see event or "neuromorphic" cameras), but it's a significant difference. My more sympathetic reading of embodiment is that the relative paucity of the human sensory stream is part of what makes us work better than current AI in many domains, in that it forces us to form richer, temporal world models from a low bitrate stream of salient events instead of relying on shallow responses to rich sensory data.

yladiz 2mo ago

Define “direct”, “access”, and “reality”.

andai 2mo ago

Well here's a fun one. If the outside is simulated, why not the inside?