2 ms·

an LLM can easily code it without errors can't tell if sarcasm or not. Just in case it's not.. in that case why don't we all vibe everything in assembly? No ne

an LLM can easily code it without errors can't tell if sarcasm or not. Just in case it's not.. in that case why don't we all vibe everything in assembly? No need for abstractions anymore since that's a human concept. LLM can do it without errors, as you say, and we'll reap the benefits of speed!

mdp2021 2mo ago
> why don't we all vibe everything in assembly I really loved this retort, but we have to reply: from that cone of perspective, it would be probably better to "vibecode" in C and not hope that the LLM does a better job than the compiler (for efficiency, not for absence of bugs as per the original). (Edit: for clarity: some compilers of low level languages are specialized in ASM optimization - the LLM will hardly beat them.)
fragmede 2mo ago
Because it's not portable. The world we find ourselves in is at least x86 and ARM, and assembly for one isn't good for the other. LLVM has a hardware agnostic intermediate representation (IR) that one could use though.
- Keyframe 2mo ago
  you're not thinking vibe enough. Your prompts are now the program, that's your abstraction. Ideally, if it would work, LLM would be the one then producing each platform's output. Maybe even compiling from higher languages to gather some compiler optimization hints and then doing full salvo of asm. Ideally.
slashdave 2mo ago
Except for some odd corner cases, it is very hard for a good engineer to beat compilers these days (they are very good now). Not to mention, tuning depends on the platform, and often the exact model of chip.
- zero-sharp 2mo ago
  there were two lead developers from FFMPEG on Lex Fridman's youtube channel who talked about performance gain from assembly. They claimed the opposite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUo0UwZOaRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUo0UwZOaRw
  - slashdave 2mo ago
    Yeah, a corner case (streaming) and good developers working very hard. The original SSE (SIMD) extensions were actually written with this use case in mind. When they first came out, the compilers were awful. They've since caught up.
- Keyframe 2mo ago
  * it is very hard for a good engineer to beat compilers these days (they are very good now).* I keep hearing this for the last 20 odd years, yet I see evidence to the contrary each and every day. It is hard and honest work though.
  - okanat 2mo ago
    A good engineer isn't a godlike entity who knows all. They know when to bring in assembly and when to be satisfied with C / C++ / Rust compilers and steer the compiler. Assembly has unique advantages like guaranteed execution duration for cryptography or exact optimization of hot-loop computation. 99% of the even performance-sensive code doesn't need assembly and compilers beat good engineers in this category since API surface is big and complicated. For 1% very hot code or very sensitive code due to execution duration / predictability / throughput, humans usually code better than compilers. This is due to specialization and limited DoF problems that can be solved and optimized to hell.
    - slashdave 2mo ago
      Indeed. Compilers do have to make compromises, and it is not possible from code alone to understand the tradeoffs.

mdp2021 2mo ago

> why don't we all vibe everything in assembly I really loved this retort, but we have to reply: from that cone of perspective, it would be probably better to "vibecode" in C and not hope that the LLM does a better job than the compiler (for efficiency, not for absence of bugs as per the original). (Edit: for clarity: some compilers of low level languages are specialized in ASM optimization - the LLM will hardly beat them.)

fragmede 2mo ago

Because it's not portable. The world we find ourselves in is at least x86 and ARM, and assembly for one isn't good for the other. LLVM has a hardware agnostic intermediate representation (IR) that one could use though.

Keyframe 2mo ago
you're not thinking vibe enough. Your prompts are now the program, that's your abstraction. Ideally, if it would work, LLM would be the one then producing each platform's output. Maybe even compiling from higher languages to gather some compiler optimization hints and then doing full salvo of asm. Ideally.

slashdave 2mo ago

Except for some odd corner cases, it is very hard for a good engineer to beat compilers these days (they are very good now). Not to mention, tuning depends on the platform, and often the exact model of chip.

zero-sharp 2mo ago
there were two lead developers from FFMPEG on Lex Fridman's youtube channel who talked about performance gain from assembly. They claimed the opposite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUo0UwZOaRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUo0UwZOaRw
- slashdave 2mo ago
  Yeah, a corner case (streaming) and good developers working very hard. The original SSE (SIMD) extensions were actually written with this use case in mind. When they first came out, the compilers were awful. They've since caught up.
Keyframe 2mo ago
* it is very hard for a good engineer to beat compilers these days (they are very good now).* I keep hearing this for the last 20 odd years, yet I see evidence to the contrary each and every day. It is hard and honest work though.
- okanat 2mo ago
  A good engineer isn't a godlike entity who knows all. They know when to bring in assembly and when to be satisfied with C / C++ / Rust compilers and steer the compiler. Assembly has unique advantages like guaranteed execution duration for cryptography or exact optimization of hot-loop computation. 99% of the even performance-sensive code doesn't need assembly and compilers beat good engineers in this category since API surface is big and complicated. For 1% very hot code or very sensitive code due to execution duration / predictability / throughput, humans usually code better than compilers. This is due to specialization and limited DoF problems that can be solved and optimized to hell.
  - slashdave 2mo ago
    Indeed. Compilers do have to make compromises, and it is not possible from code alone to understand the tradeoffs.