3 ms·

> A personal music player for Apple Music with an embedded agent loop, so I can say things like "I'm going to work in the wood shop, play woodworking-appropriat

> A personal music player for Apple Music with an embedded agent loop, so I can say things like "I'm going to work in the wood shop, play woodworking-appropriate music and keep the playlist full and non-repeating indefinitely". how is AI (or a human for that matter) supposed to know what “woodworking-appropriate music is”? I had the same thoughts when spotify released their “let AI make a playlist for you”. Like, we already have recommender algorithms, why do we need to get a LLM involved?Maybe I just don’t understand woodworking and the connection it has to music though (I’m also the kind of person who’s had the same playlist for like the past 4 years) But, I do want to say, personal app built just the way you like it, an alternative front end to a closed source ecosystem even, is super cool, and has been one of the things that AI coding has really enabled. I’ve done a few project where I just give claude a har file and tell it to reverse engineer a cli from some web interface and it’s so powerful to be able to do stuff like that now

ButlerianJihad 2mo ago
Woodworking recommendations shall include: “If I Had a Hammer” “Sledgehammer”—Peter Gabriel Anything by The Carpenters Any works by Woody Guthrie Hymns about Jesus and St. Joseph Lumber Capital Log Yard Anything by Nine Inch Nails Anything by the Sandpipers “Turn, Turn, Turn” “Dust in the Wind” by Kansas Anything by Dusty Springfield Anything by MC Hammer Original Motion Picture Soundtrack, “Saw” horror franchise Anything by Level 42 https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=sTUKhRXXiylavwIm https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=sTUKhRXXiylavwIm Anything by 1-hit wonder The Nails and/or powerviolence band NAILS “Morning Wood” by Beavis & Butt-Head “The Lumberjack Song” by Monty Python
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
tptacek 2mo ago
Because I played a bunch of music while doing woodworking stuff and asked for more like that. Things like this are easy with a simple agent loop. It's not picking random music out of the sky; it's working from my Apple Music library (and then expanding on it from the Apple Music catalog).
- latexr 2mo ago
  > Things like this are easy with a simple agent loop. To be fair, they’re also easy (trivial, even) without one. It’s not like “play more music like this” is something we ever needed AI for.
  - embedding-shape 2mo ago
    > It’s not like “play more music like this” is something we ever needed AI for. Borderline off-topic, but I love how fast the goal post moves. A decade or two ago "Similar music to this" was definitively in the realm of AI/ML, now it's some full-stack dev's afternoon to implement.
    - moooo99 2mo ago
      I don‘t think someone disputes that this is in the realm of AI/ML. I just think its questionable if this kind of usecase is genuinely something were an LLM is necessary or outshines the more traditional approaches
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
    - latexr 2mo ago
      What are you even talking about? No, of course music recommendation systems had nothing to do with LLMs two decades ago (which is obviously the crux of the discussion), that is insane. And no one has said anything about a “full-stack dev's afternoon”, I’ll kindly ask that you don’t straw man. No goal posts are moving, that fallacy does not mean “argument I don’t like or understand”. What happened to good faith discussion? It’s ever more common on HN that someone will just invent some argument in their head, attack that, then act like they are the arbiter of reason when they couldn’t even understand the argument. That’s not interesting. Engage with what was said.
      - embedding-shape 2mo ago
        > What are you even talking about? No, of course music recommendation systems had nothing to do with LLMs two decades ago (which is obviously the crux of the discussion), that is insane. Of course not, but just some years ago, when people talked about "AI" in ML circles, they weren't exclusively talking about LLMs, which you seemed to have automatically and exclusively associated "AI" with. It's much larger than just LLMs, although the ecosystem is flooded with LLMs at the moment. I thought this very movement, where tons of people, not just you, have this "AI === LLMs" association, when again, it used to not be so.
eviks 2mo ago
> how is AI (or a human for that matter) supposed to know what “woodworking-appropriate music is”? It doesn't, but you'll believe it is because that's what you asked for. It's not like you have a solid test for what it is yourself
- eloisius 2mo ago
  Guaranteed it would be unable to avoid searching for and selecting songs that specifically mention wood, woodworking, the shop, etc. It's like when you tell it to write something and give it a "vibe" or "mood" word wishing it could just give tone to the generated text, but instead it incorporates it literally.
  - tptacek 2mo ago
    As a person who built and uses this feature several times a week, no, it never does this. It just plays a lot of Tom Petty.
- senko 2mo ago
  Now, see, when AI does something like this, we call that "hallucination". Thomas explained what he means in a sibling comment an hour before yours.
dist-epoch 2mo ago
> we already have recommender algorithms, why do we need to get a LLM involved and we had autocomplete for coding (IntelliSense), why do we need to get LLM involved? LLMs are at a whole different level than recommender algorithms tried it with GPT: > A steady mix of instrumental grooves, classic rock, and bluegrass—styles commonly favored in woodshops. Green Onions - Booker T. & the M.G.’s Up Around the Bend - Creedence Clearwater Revival Jessica - The Allman Brothers Band Long Train Runnin - The Doobie Brothers Honey on My Tongue - Steep Canyon Rangers
- tptacek 2mo ago
  2 of those acts are in my woodworking rotation.
IanCal 2mo ago
Recommendation algorithms are, frankly, weird as a user. Something watches your tiny interactions and, with zero concept of anything happening, gets surprisingly good at predicting your next interactions. It’d be like eating and having an alien with no concept of food or taste staring at how much your facial muscles change and making notes. Then recommending places to you based on the other people they’ve been studying. > how is AI (or a human for that matter) supposed to know what “woodworking-appropriate music is”? Well someone is going to be concentrating, but it’s a long period, with loud activity. maybe you’d guess at decently active music, not relying on careful complex listening, probably fairly steady rather than sudden dramatic changes. Maybe it could save previous playlists and what you’ve said about them, or ask questions like “so like, really calm or techno or what?”. Adding just a bit of common sense makes an enormous difference with this kind of thing.
- tptacek 2mo ago
  They are weird. But stuff like this solves one of my great challenges in life, which is that I've got many tens of thousands of songs in my library but only manage to hear tiny repetitive epicycles of them. I don't want a tight rotation of the same 200 songs, and I don't literally want to randomly walk my whole library, and I don't want to allocate lots of time curating exactly what I'm going to listen to. LLMs are great at this. (Actually I totally do want to allocate lots of time curating exactly what I'm going to listen to, but laying out playlists is its own hobby, and woodworking time is for making wood shoot across my basement when I pinch the saw blade, not for making mixtapes.)
  - IanCal 2mo ago
    Oh I mean LLMs are the opposite, they’re not the same blind optimisation thing weirdly watching you with no core understanding. They’re great for this kind of thing.

ButlerianJihad 2mo ago

Woodworking recommendations shall include: “If I Had a Hammer” “Sledgehammer”—Peter Gabriel Anything by The Carpenters Any works by Woody Guthrie Hymns about Jesus and St. Joseph Lumber Capital Log Yard Anything by Nine Inch Nails Anything by the Sandpipers “Turn, Turn, Turn” “Dust in the Wind” by Kansas Anything by Dusty Springfield Anything by MC Hammer Original Motion Picture Soundtrack, “Saw” horror franchise Anything by Level 42 https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=sTUKhRXXiylavwIm https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=sTUKhRXXiylavwIm Anything by 1-hit wonder The Nails and/or powerviolence band NAILS “Morning Wood” by Beavis & Butt-Head “The Lumberjack Song” by Monty Python

deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]

tptacek 2mo ago

Because I played a bunch of music while doing woodworking stuff and asked for more like that. Things like this are easy with a simple agent loop. It's not picking random music out of the sky; it's working from my Apple Music library (and then expanding on it from the Apple Music catalog).

latexr 2mo ago
> Things like this are easy with a simple agent loop. To be fair, they’re also easy (trivial, even) without one. It’s not like “play more music like this” is something we ever needed AI for.
- embedding-shape 2mo ago
  > It’s not like “play more music like this” is something we ever needed AI for. Borderline off-topic, but I love how fast the goal post moves. A decade or two ago "Similar music to this" was definitively in the realm of AI/ML, now it's some full-stack dev's afternoon to implement.
  - moooo99 2mo ago
    I don‘t think someone disputes that this is in the realm of AI/ML. I just think its questionable if this kind of usecase is genuinely something were an LLM is necessary or outshines the more traditional approaches
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - latexr 2mo ago
    What are you even talking about? No, of course music recommendation systems had nothing to do with LLMs two decades ago (which is obviously the crux of the discussion), that is insane. And no one has said anything about a “full-stack dev's afternoon”, I’ll kindly ask that you don’t straw man. No goal posts are moving, that fallacy does not mean “argument I don’t like or understand”. What happened to good faith discussion? It’s ever more common on HN that someone will just invent some argument in their head, attack that, then act like they are the arbiter of reason when they couldn’t even understand the argument. That’s not interesting. Engage with what was said.
    - embedding-shape 2mo ago
      > What are you even talking about? No, of course music recommendation systems had nothing to do with LLMs two decades ago (which is obviously the crux of the discussion), that is insane. Of course not, but just some years ago, when people talked about "AI" in ML circles, they weren't exclusively talking about LLMs, which you seemed to have automatically and exclusively associated "AI" with. It's much larger than just LLMs, although the ecosystem is flooded with LLMs at the moment. I thought this very movement, where tons of people, not just you, have this "AI === LLMs" association, when again, it used to not be so.

eviks 2mo ago

> how is AI (or a human for that matter) supposed to know what “woodworking-appropriate music is”? It doesn't, but you'll believe it is because that's what you asked for. It's not like you have a solid test for what it is yourself

eloisius 2mo ago
Guaranteed it would be unable to avoid searching for and selecting songs that specifically mention wood, woodworking, the shop, etc. It's like when you tell it to write something and give it a "vibe" or "mood" word wishing it could just give tone to the generated text, but instead it incorporates it literally.
- tptacek 2mo ago
  As a person who built and uses this feature several times a week, no, it never does this. It just plays a lot of Tom Petty.
senko 2mo ago
Now, see, when AI does something like this, we call that "hallucination". Thomas explained what he means in a sibling comment an hour before yours.

dist-epoch 2mo ago

> we already have recommender algorithms, why do we need to get a LLM involved and we had autocomplete for coding (IntelliSense), why do we need to get LLM involved? LLMs are at a whole different level than recommender algorithms tried it with GPT: > A steady mix of instrumental grooves, classic rock, and bluegrass—styles commonly favored in woodshops. Green Onions - Booker T. & the M.G.’s Up Around the Bend - Creedence Clearwater Revival Jessica - The Allman Brothers Band Long Train Runnin - The Doobie Brothers Honey on My Tongue - Steep Canyon Rangers

tptacek 2mo ago
2 of those acts are in my woodworking rotation.

IanCal 2mo ago

Recommendation algorithms are, frankly, weird as a user. Something watches your tiny interactions and, with zero concept of anything happening, gets surprisingly good at predicting your next interactions. It’d be like eating and having an alien with no concept of food or taste staring at how much your facial muscles change and making notes. Then recommending places to you based on the other people they’ve been studying. > how is AI (or a human for that matter) supposed to know what “woodworking-appropriate music is”? Well someone is going to be concentrating, but it’s a long period, with loud activity. maybe you’d guess at decently active music, not relying on careful complex listening, probably fairly steady rather than sudden dramatic changes. Maybe it could save previous playlists and what you’ve said about them, or ask questions like “so like, really calm or techno or what?”. Adding just a bit of common sense makes an enormous difference with this kind of thing.

tptacek 2mo ago
They are weird. But stuff like this solves one of my great challenges in life, which is that I've got many tens of thousands of songs in my library but only manage to hear tiny repetitive epicycles of them. I don't want a tight rotation of the same 200 songs, and I don't literally want to randomly walk my whole library, and I don't want to allocate lots of time curating exactly what I'm going to listen to. LLMs are great at this. (Actually I totally do want to allocate lots of time curating exactly what I'm going to listen to, but laying out playlists is its own hobby, and woodworking time is for making wood shoot across my basement when I pinch the saw blade, not for making mixtapes.)
- IanCal 2mo ago
  Oh I mean LLMs are the opposite, they’re not the same blind optimisation thing weirdly watching you with no core understanding. They’re great for this kind of thing.