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Maybe he's not ready to fulfill the rewards yet. I don't see that as a reason to file a lawsuit. I backed the kickstarter PID espresso machine project almost

Maybe he's not ready to fulfill the rewards yet. I don't see that as a reason to file a lawsuit. I backed the kickstarter PID espresso machine project almost a year ago and have yet to see my reward. They reached their funding goal before this CodeHero fellow, so should we also file a lawsuit too?

mnicole 14y ago
The t-shirts in particular could have been made, or he could have apologized and tried to save face by offering a more tangible reward to hold people over. Having the rewards solely hinge on the release of the product seems counterintuitive on Kickstarter's behalf, but it's still bad etiquette to take people's money and literally give them nothing for it, even if you can't give them what they originally wanted. People really want to support Alex and this endeavor. They're willing to make sacrifices. They just want clarity, and I don't think that's asking too much.
- veemjeem 14y ago
  Most of the backers for the espresso machine project (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controll...) haven't received their rewards either, but we aren't up in arms ready to file a lawsuit either. I honestly don't see people making sacrifices -- the backers put in a few hundred dollars with the full knowledge that it takes a lot of work to make it happen. Kickstarter is not a rewards preordering system. You're not giving money expecting to see your reward show up on your doorstep "soon".
  - mnicole 14y ago
    In creating this project, he agreed to the Terms of Use and it's within the folks' rights to request refunds at this point. http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acc... I'm not a backer, just sympathetic to the situation on both sides, but an obligation is just that.
    - veemjeem 14y ago
      He only has an obligation to refund if he decides to cancel the project. As far as we know, the project is still continuing so he has no obligation to fulfill the refunds. In the faq you linked, here's a choice quote: >It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.
      - dbecker 14y ago
        That quote is relevant if he is still making progress on the project. But I haven't heard any evidence of that. Unless he at least announces that he's still working on it, I think it's reasonable to treat it as canceled.
        veemjeem 14y ago
        You probably didn't see the update, but Primer Labs announced that development is still continuing: http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues So backers should be patient and not threaten lawsuits because the project is taking too long.
        jacalata 14y ago
        Or backers should go ahead and threaten a lawsuit because that appears to be the only way to force the developer to meet the 'being transparent' requirement in the terms quoted above?
      - bigiain 14y ago
        "As far as we know, the project is still continuing so he has no obligation to fulfill the refunds." While I agree with that completely, there's two different sorts of deliverables promised as rewards - the actual project output, which as you point out may only be delayed and not cancelled, but also the "trinkets". If he's really run out of money without having already paid for the tshirts and usb keys (and if it were me, probably also the "special packaging" promised for some rewards), then I think he's done something _very_ foolish.
- wiwillia 14y ago
  This is a great example of why Kickstarter should automate the production/fulfillment of these basic, common rewards. Too many organizers of Kickstarter projects list t-shirts, stickers, etc. in the rewards without even bothering to price the production out (or think about the amount of logistics required to fulfill hundreds to thousands of individual items). Disclaimer: I work for Teespring, and pretty much all we do is automate this sort of thing (so I may be biased).

mnicole 14y ago

The t-shirts in particular could have been made, or he could have apologized and tried to save face by offering a more tangible reward to hold people over. Having the rewards solely hinge on the release of the product seems counterintuitive on Kickstarter's behalf, but it's still bad etiquette to take people's money and literally give them nothing for it, even if you can't give them what they originally wanted. People really want to support Alex and this endeavor. They're willing to make sacrifices. They just want clarity, and I don't think that's asking too much.

veemjeem 14y ago
Most of the backers for the espresso machine project (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controll...) haven't received their rewards either, but we aren't up in arms ready to file a lawsuit either. I honestly don't see people making sacrifices -- the backers put in a few hundred dollars with the full knowledge that it takes a lot of work to make it happen. Kickstarter is not a rewards preordering system. You're not giving money expecting to see your reward show up on your doorstep "soon".
- mnicole 14y ago
  In creating this project, he agreed to the Terms of Use and it's within the folks' rights to request refunds at this point. http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acc... I'm not a backer, just sympathetic to the situation on both sides, but an obligation is just that.
  - veemjeem 14y ago
    He only has an obligation to refund if he decides to cancel the project. As far as we know, the project is still continuing so he has no obligation to fulfill the refunds. In the faq you linked, here's a choice quote: >It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.
    - dbecker 14y ago
      That quote is relevant if he is still making progress on the project. But I haven't heard any evidence of that. Unless he at least announces that he's still working on it, I think it's reasonable to treat it as canceled.
      - veemjeem 14y ago
        You probably didn't see the update, but Primer Labs announced that development is still continuing: http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues So backers should be patient and not threaten lawsuits because the project is taking too long.
        jacalata 14y ago
        Or backers should go ahead and threaten a lawsuit because that appears to be the only way to force the developer to meet the 'being transparent' requirement in the terms quoted above?
    - bigiain 14y ago
      "As far as we know, the project is still continuing so he has no obligation to fulfill the refunds." While I agree with that completely, there's two different sorts of deliverables promised as rewards - the actual project output, which as you point out may only be delayed and not cancelled, but also the "trinkets". If he's really run out of money without having already paid for the tshirts and usb keys (and if it were me, probably also the "special packaging" promised for some rewards), then I think he's done something _very_ foolish.
wiwillia 14y ago
This is a great example of why Kickstarter should automate the production/fulfillment of these basic, common rewards. Too many organizers of Kickstarter projects list t-shirts, stickers, etc. in the rewards without even bothering to price the production out (or think about the amount of logistics required to fulfill hundreds to thousands of individual items). Disclaimer: I work for Teespring, and pretty much all we do is automate this sort of thing (so I may be biased).