13 ms·

Regardless of if he is indebted to fulfill the Kickstarter project itself, he's still required to send out the rewards. Furthermore, his lack of transparency on

by mnicole 14y ago

Regardless of if he is indebted to fulfill the Kickstarter project itself, he's still required to send out the rewards. Furthermore, his lack of transparency on the issue (while continuing to give the media attention) is really what people are pissed off about. There's no excuse for that. He may very well be an incredibly passionate guy, but he's lost the trust of those who were willing to support him even if things hit the fan simply due to the lack of communication.

veemjeem 14y ago
Maybe he's not ready to fulfill the rewards yet. I don't see that as a reason to file a lawsuit. I backed the kickstarter PID espresso machine project almost a year ago and have yet to see my reward. They reached their funding goal before this CodeHero fellow, so should we also file a lawsuit too?
- mnicole 14y ago
  The t-shirts in particular could have been made, or he could have apologized and tried to save face by offering a more tangible reward to hold people over. Having the rewards solely hinge on the release of the product seems counterintuitive on Kickstarter's behalf, but it's still bad etiquette to take people's money and literally give them nothing for it, even if you can't give them what they originally wanted. People really want to support Alex and this endeavor. They're willing to make sacrifices. They just want clarity, and I don't think that's asking too much.
  - veemjeem 14y ago
    Most of the backers for the espresso machine project (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controll...) haven't received their rewards either, but we aren't up in arms ready to file a lawsuit either. I honestly don't see people making sacrifices -- the backers put in a few hundred dollars with the full knowledge that it takes a lot of work to make it happen. Kickstarter is not a rewards preordering system. You're not giving money expecting to see your reward show up on your doorstep "soon".
    - mnicole 14y ago
      In creating this project, he agreed to the Terms of Use and it's within the folks' rights to request refunds at this point. http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acc... I'm not a backer, just sympathetic to the situation on both sides, but an obligation is just that.
      - veemjeem 14y ago
        He only has an obligation to refund if he decides to cancel the project. As far as we know, the project is still continuing so he has no obligation to fulfill the refunds. In the faq you linked, here's a choice quote: >It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.
        dbecker 14y ago
        That quote is relevant if he is still making progress on the project. But I haven't heard any evidence of that. Unless he at least announces that he's still working on it, I think it's reasonable to treat it as canceled.
        veemjeem 14y ago
        You probably didn't see the update, but Primer Labs announced that development is still continuing: http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues So backers should be patient and not threaten lawsuits because the project is taking too long.
        jacalata 14y ago
        Or backers should go ahead and threaten a lawsuit because that appears to be the only way to force the developer to meet the 'being transparent' requirement in the terms quoted above?
  - wiwillia 14y ago
    This is a great example of why Kickstarter should automate the production/fulfillment of these basic, common rewards. Too many organizers of Kickstarter projects list t-shirts, stickers, etc. in the rewards without even bothering to price the production out (or think about the amount of logistics required to fulfill hundreds to thousands of individual items). Disclaimer: I work for Teespring, and pretty much all we do is automate this sort of thing (so I may be biased).
saurik 14y ago
So, if he is required to send out the rewards (even if the project failed, which it sounds like it must have, if people feel the funds were misused; to be clear, my understanding is that the Kickstarter was for a better game than the original Code Hero I said was possibly released), then Kickstarter is no longer a crowd-funded donation system for speculative investing and is a way to avoid collecting sales tax for purchases of physical goods (or custom software, such as "a special version with X", which is also often subject to sales tax).
- mnicole 14y ago
  I am unsure if rewards in this sense means the project itself or just the incentives. In any case, he's fulfilled neither. Here's the text from KS: "Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project? Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill." It also cites this image: https://ksr-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/creator-responsibility.png https://ksr-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/creator-responsibility.p... which I think describes this situation pretty well.
  - saurik 14y ago
    Interesting! I am thereby highly confused as to how Kickstarter is legal (in addition to how it satisfies the requirements of credit card companies, which state that you cannot capture funds until you ship the product someone ordered).
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      For one, a pledge to a Kickstarter project is absolutely not an "order" for a product. It is an investment in a future which may or may not come to fruition. What happens if you put down $60 at the local Gamestop on a game that later gets cancelled? You get your money back, yes, but in the meantime, Gamestop gets to keep your cash.
waterlesscloud 14y ago
I think Kickstarter would be very well served by creating higher expectations in terms of project updates. Set a standard. Say once a month for a minimum. If you don't have something to say to your backers once a month I have to wonder if you are placing the proper priority on the project. If projects don't meet that standard, turn their page amber or something similar. A big visual sign that the project is not meeting the standard. If it goes 3 months with no update turn it red. Make it stand out. Make people feel some pressure to communicate. In the end, it's best for Kickstarter to push projects to better relationships with the backers.
- mnicole 14y ago
  Totally agree. They state multiple times in the Accountability section of their FAQ that they understand that there are roadblocks and things that come up. Also that if the project can't be completed that it's in the owner's best interest to detail how the money was spent.
- toomuchtodo 14y ago
  Perhaps Kickstarter needs a project liaison for projects over a certain dollar threshold; people who ask "How is it going? What are you doing?". Kiva does this for the people I lend money to (even though I lend without the expectation of the money ever coming back, I want to know how the borrow is doing regardless of the outcome). This can be built into the cost of the Kickstarter project, and for projects $100K and above, believe it to be completely reasonable.
  - DannyBee 14y ago
    Kickstarter doesn't want this because it can bring possible liability. They want as little to do as possible with the actual projects success or failure while still seeming to be wanting them to win :)
    - toomuchtodo 14y ago
      This isn't copyright law, and turning their head isn't going to remove liability (a la Craigslist sex workers debacle). Good luck arguing financial safe harbor provisions ("we're just a marketplace! It's not our place to regulate!").
FireBeyond 14y ago
Each of the pledges has an "Estimated Delivery". While those have passed, I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't understand that there can be a sometimes tenuous relationship between "estimate" and "realistic" when dealing with a "prototype". The communication issue is, agreed, his own worst enemy.
- Heliosmaster 14y ago
  Especially when most of them set really unrealistic dates. Hey, why don't we make a game, and ship it IN TWO MONTHS? Yeah sure, I'm definitely believing that in two months (just for an example) you are going to address every problem that has arisen. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/28/the-kickstarter-successes-where-are-they-now/ http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/28/the-kickstarter-s...
deleted 14y ago
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by mnicole 14y ago

veemjeem 14y ago

Maybe he's not ready to fulfill the rewards yet. I don't see that as a reason to file a lawsuit. I backed the kickstarter PID espresso machine project almost a year ago and have yet to see my reward. They reached their funding goal before this CodeHero fellow, so should we also file a lawsuit too?

mnicole 14y ago
The t-shirts in particular could have been made, or he could have apologized and tried to save face by offering a more tangible reward to hold people over. Having the rewards solely hinge on the release of the product seems counterintuitive on Kickstarter's behalf, but it's still bad etiquette to take people's money and literally give them nothing for it, even if you can't give them what they originally wanted. People really want to support Alex and this endeavor. They're willing to make sacrifices. They just want clarity, and I don't think that's asking too much.
- veemjeem 14y ago
  Most of the backers for the espresso machine project (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controll...) haven't received their rewards either, but we aren't up in arms ready to file a lawsuit either. I honestly don't see people making sacrifices -- the backers put in a few hundred dollars with the full knowledge that it takes a lot of work to make it happen. Kickstarter is not a rewards preordering system. You're not giving money expecting to see your reward show up on your doorstep "soon".
  - mnicole 14y ago
    In creating this project, he agreed to the Terms of Use and it's within the folks' rights to request refunds at this point. http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acc... I'm not a backer, just sympathetic to the situation on both sides, but an obligation is just that.
    - veemjeem 14y ago
      He only has an obligation to refund if he decides to cancel the project. As far as we know, the project is still continuing so he has no obligation to fulfill the refunds. In the faq you linked, here's a choice quote: >It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.
      - dbecker 14y ago
        That quote is relevant if he is still making progress on the project. But I haven't heard any evidence of that. Unless he at least announces that he's still working on it, I think it's reasonable to treat it as canceled.
        veemjeem 14y ago
        You probably didn't see the update, but Primer Labs announced that development is still continuing: http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues http://primerlabs.com/developmentcontinues So backers should be patient and not threaten lawsuits because the project is taking too long.
        jacalata 14y ago
        Or backers should go ahead and threaten a lawsuit because that appears to be the only way to force the developer to meet the 'being transparent' requirement in the terms quoted above?
- wiwillia 14y ago
  This is a great example of why Kickstarter should automate the production/fulfillment of these basic, common rewards. Too many organizers of Kickstarter projects list t-shirts, stickers, etc. in the rewards without even bothering to price the production out (or think about the amount of logistics required to fulfill hundreds to thousands of individual items). Disclaimer: I work for Teespring, and pretty much all we do is automate this sort of thing (so I may be biased).

saurik 14y ago

So, if he is required to send out the rewards (even if the project failed, which it sounds like it must have, if people feel the funds were misused; to be clear, my understanding is that the Kickstarter was for a better game than the original Code Hero I said was possibly released), then Kickstarter is no longer a crowd-funded donation system for speculative investing and is a way to avoid collecting sales tax for purchases of physical goods (or custom software, such as "a special version with X", which is also often subject to sales tax).

mnicole 14y ago
I am unsure if rewards in this sense means the project itself or just the incentives. In any case, he's fulfilled neither. Here's the text from KS: "Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project? Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill." It also cites this image: https://ksr-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/creator-responsibility.png https://ksr-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/creator-responsibility.p... which I think describes this situation pretty well.
- saurik 14y ago
  Interesting! I am thereby highly confused as to how Kickstarter is legal (in addition to how it satisfies the requirements of credit card companies, which state that you cannot capture funds until you ship the product someone ordered).
  - Karunamon 14y ago
    For one, a pledge to a Kickstarter project is absolutely not an "order" for a product. It is an investment in a future which may or may not come to fruition. What happens if you put down $60 at the local Gamestop on a game that later gets cancelled? You get your money back, yes, but in the meantime, Gamestop gets to keep your cash.

waterlesscloud 14y ago

I think Kickstarter would be very well served by creating higher expectations in terms of project updates. Set a standard. Say once a month for a minimum. If you don't have something to say to your backers once a month I have to wonder if you are placing the proper priority on the project. If projects don't meet that standard, turn their page amber or something similar. A big visual sign that the project is not meeting the standard. If it goes 3 months with no update turn it red. Make it stand out. Make people feel some pressure to communicate. In the end, it's best for Kickstarter to push projects to better relationships with the backers.

mnicole 14y ago
Totally agree. They state multiple times in the Accountability section of their FAQ that they understand that there are roadblocks and things that come up. Also that if the project can't be completed that it's in the owner's best interest to detail how the money was spent.
toomuchtodo 14y ago
Perhaps Kickstarter needs a project liaison for projects over a certain dollar threshold; people who ask "How is it going? What are you doing?". Kiva does this for the people I lend money to (even though I lend without the expectation of the money ever coming back, I want to know how the borrow is doing regardless of the outcome). This can be built into the cost of the Kickstarter project, and for projects $100K and above, believe it to be completely reasonable.
- DannyBee 14y ago
  Kickstarter doesn't want this because it can bring possible liability. They want as little to do as possible with the actual projects success or failure while still seeming to be wanting them to win :)
  - toomuchtodo 14y ago
    This isn't copyright law, and turning their head isn't going to remove liability (a la Craigslist sex workers debacle). Good luck arguing financial safe harbor provisions ("we're just a marketplace! It's not our place to regulate!").

FireBeyond 14y ago

Each of the pledges has an "Estimated Delivery". While those have passed, I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't understand that there can be a sometimes tenuous relationship between "estimate" and "realistic" when dealing with a "prototype". The communication issue is, agreed, his own worst enemy.

Heliosmaster 14y ago
Especially when most of them set really unrealistic dates. Hey, why don't we make a game, and ship it IN TWO MONTHS? Yeah sure, I'm definitely believing that in two months (just for an example) you are going to address every problem that has arisen. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/28/the-kickstarter-successes-where-are-they-now/ http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/28/the-kickstarter-s...

deleted 14y ago

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