3 ms·

> I like Chicago a lot and think that it's a great place to live. Honestly, I think the obscene cost of living in New York and San Francisco has a negative over

> I like Chicago a lot and think that it's a great place to live. Honestly, I think the obscene cost of living in New York and San Francisco has a negative overall impact on the quality of businesses that can be founded, but that's a rant for another time. Well, I'm going to talk about it now, if you don't mind :P If you look at a list of US MSAs[0], you can see that there are quite a few very large cities with low costs of living. For example, the Dallas and Houston MSAs are ranked 4th and 5th (SF is 11th), and are in a state that has a relatively low cost of living, not least due to the 0% income tax. Houston in particular is known for its lack of zoning laws (though some say not a complete lack), which drives down housing costs - the direct opposite of SF. Although many people might think that they'll be surrounded by teabagging creationists if they go to Dallas or Houston, you'll actually find that there are a lot of young people in the cities that aren't your average Texan (and often aren't even from Texas). You obviously lose some of the network effects advantages by moving to the Midwest, but I think such issues are becoming less and less important with each passing day, partially due to the connectivity provided by the internet, and partially due to a geographical diversification of the tech industry. 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropol...

kodablah 14y ago
I live in Dallas and there is a significant level of opportunity here for both employers/entrepreneurs and employees. Anecdotally, neither myself nor other talented devs I know have ever struggled finding intriguing work (I work at SoftLayer) or finding qualified coworkers. I will say though that Dallas does not have anywhere near the scene when it comes to the social aspect of development/employment. The conferences are sporadic and not very big. Then gain, I am not a big conference person, so it does not bother me.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  Can you provide your personal perspective on the cost of living and quality of life in Dallas, as opposed to SF or NYC?
  - ericabiz 14y ago
    I can, for Austin. I lived in the Bay Area for 10 years and ran a tech company there. I chose to locate my current startup (now 6 people; 4 Austin/2 remote) in Austin. Here's my perspective: http://www.erica.biz/2012/austin-vs-silicon-valley/ http://www.erica.biz/2012/austin-vs-silicon-valley/
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      > you can save $20,000+ a year on taxes here I can't believe this hasn't attracted a lot more people already, you can do quite a lot with $20k extra every year! One other question - how is the transportation situation in Austin? Can you drive everywhere? As someone who grew up in the Midwest, I don't really like having to use public transportation. Is there parking everywhere you go in (downtown) Austin? The religiosity in Austin is unfortunate, but from what friends in Dallas and Houston have told me, this is not so much the case in those cities (partly due to more out-of-state people). The weather in the summer (and winter) can be quite unbearable in the Midwest as well, but I've dealt with that since childhood by just staying inside (as I am happy to do pretty much all year round, actually). If you buy a house, it's quite easy to ensure you have double-paned windows and good insulation, and energy costs are relatively low, so you can keep the temperature at a comfortable 70-80 F year round. And it's amazing how you can buy houses in the Midwest that would be considered palatial in SF for a fraction of the cost of renting an apartment!
      - ericabiz 14y ago
        I am from Indiana and I drive everywhere in Austin. However, I also live near a bus stop... just in case! There is plenty of parking except when South by Southwest Interactive is in town (1 week out of the year.) Weather is similar to what I had growing up in Indiana, so it doesn't bother me at all. I just paid my last year of taxes in California, and living here will save me over $30,000 a year in state income tax alone. That is probably what you will save as a dual-income household in the Bay Area. The savings more than pays my mortgage and utilities for a house close to downtown in a good neighborhood.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  The issue that you run into in smaller cities (e.g. Minneapolis, Dallas, Austin) is that you can't have as long a SELECT query when you're hiring developers (or looking for jobs). If you demand a Scala expert with production Cassandra and Hadoop experience, plus 4+ years of Javascript. Outside of the star cities, you have to grow your own talent. On the other hand, people don't leave you every 2 years and you don't have to give people 20% raises every year to account for the disgusting housing prices.
  - ericabiz 14y ago
    This is true. When my co-founder and I looked on LinkedIn for developers in Austin with Python and Erlang experience, there were only 6 total people--and one of them was my co-founder! Fortunately, we managed to hire one of the other 5. Anecdotally, I've heard that many startups here in Austin are funding relocation packages for developers who are tired of living in a tiny town in the Midwest or tired of paying $4,000+ in rent in SF. There's a lot of talent moving here, and since the cost of living is sane, it's easier to attract people who want to own their own property and/or raise kids.
    - michaelochurch 14y ago
      Right. I think that most companies are going to need to grow their own talent if they want to be located in a second-tier tech hub. You find generally good people and teach them what they need to know, which means you can't expect them to be responsible for major deadlines in the first 6 months. Many companies aren't willing to do that, and the grow-fast-or-die build-to-flips can't afford the time.

kodablah 14y ago

I live in Dallas and there is a significant level of opportunity here for both employers/entrepreneurs and employees. Anecdotally, neither myself nor other talented devs I know have ever struggled finding intriguing work (I work at SoftLayer) or finding qualified coworkers. I will say though that Dallas does not have anywhere near the scene when it comes to the social aspect of development/employment. The conferences are sporadic and not very big. Then gain, I am not a big conference person, so it does not bother me.

w1ntermute 14y ago
Can you provide your personal perspective on the cost of living and quality of life in Dallas, as opposed to SF or NYC?
- ericabiz 14y ago
  I can, for Austin. I lived in the Bay Area for 10 years and ran a tech company there. I chose to locate my current startup (now 6 people; 4 Austin/2 remote) in Austin. Here's my perspective: http://www.erica.biz/2012/austin-vs-silicon-valley/ http://www.erica.biz/2012/austin-vs-silicon-valley/
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > you can save $20,000+ a year on taxes here I can't believe this hasn't attracted a lot more people already, you can do quite a lot with $20k extra every year! One other question - how is the transportation situation in Austin? Can you drive everywhere? As someone who grew up in the Midwest, I don't really like having to use public transportation. Is there parking everywhere you go in (downtown) Austin? The religiosity in Austin is unfortunate, but from what friends in Dallas and Houston have told me, this is not so much the case in those cities (partly due to more out-of-state people). The weather in the summer (and winter) can be quite unbearable in the Midwest as well, but I've dealt with that since childhood by just staying inside (as I am happy to do pretty much all year round, actually). If you buy a house, it's quite easy to ensure you have double-paned windows and good insulation, and energy costs are relatively low, so you can keep the temperature at a comfortable 70-80 F year round. And it's amazing how you can buy houses in the Midwest that would be considered palatial in SF for a fraction of the cost of renting an apartment!
    - ericabiz 14y ago
      I am from Indiana and I drive everywhere in Austin. However, I also live near a bus stop... just in case! There is plenty of parking except when South by Southwest Interactive is in town (1 week out of the year.) Weather is similar to what I had growing up in Indiana, so it doesn't bother me at all. I just paid my last year of taxes in California, and living here will save me over $30,000 a year in state income tax alone. That is probably what you will save as a dual-income household in the Bay Area. The savings more than pays my mortgage and utilities for a house close to downtown in a good neighborhood.
michaelochurch 14y ago
The issue that you run into in smaller cities (e.g. Minneapolis, Dallas, Austin) is that you can't have as long a SELECT query when you're hiring developers (or looking for jobs). If you demand a Scala expert with production Cassandra and Hadoop experience, plus 4+ years of Javascript. Outside of the star cities, you have to grow your own talent. On the other hand, people don't leave you every 2 years and you don't have to give people 20% raises every year to account for the disgusting housing prices.
- ericabiz 14y ago
  This is true. When my co-founder and I looked on LinkedIn for developers in Austin with Python and Erlang experience, there were only 6 total people--and one of them was my co-founder! Fortunately, we managed to hire one of the other 5. Anecdotally, I've heard that many startups here in Austin are funding relocation packages for developers who are tired of living in a tiny town in the Midwest or tired of paying $4,000+ in rent in SF. There's a lot of talent moving here, and since the cost of living is sane, it's easier to attract people who want to own their own property and/or raise kids.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    Right. I think that most companies are going to need to grow their own talent if they want to be located in a second-tier tech hub. You find generally good people and teach them what they need to know, which means you can't expect them to be responsible for major deadlines in the first 6 months. Many companies aren't willing to do that, and the grow-fast-or-die build-to-flips can't afford the time.