4 ms·

Israel is physically immune to being displaced, and there is good reason to think it would be a fine western-style steward when not under duress. Even israeli j

by gershy 2mo ago

Israel is physically immune to being displaced, and there is good reason to think it would be a fine western-style steward when not under duress. Even israeli jewish radicalism has historically been far less prevalent in peacetime. On the settler accusation, we still haven't fleshed out the nature of property rights outside of any state. Without coming to an understanding here we have no framework in which to judge israel's "settler" activity. (Note I fully understand and accept stateless people's use of physical force to preserve and enrich themselves.) I am aligned with and equally upset by your "immigrate and delay extradition" concerns. Breadth-first discussion is not effective, and I'd like to focus on the significant remaining objection I see from you: this matter of ingratitude towards the british. I think this is a lazy or naive characterization - e.g. the british installed a hitler ally as the negotiating partner of zionist leadership in ~1920. What do jews owe britain?

hardbass 2mo ago
Israel is immune as of yet due to parasitizing off western countries like Germany and USA. There is no reason to think they won't be much weakened if that support evaporates. It cannot be a "Western" steward if it violates the most fundamental principle of capitalism and western government viz property rights. Therefore again, my ideal and most just solution would be all land declared void and any people with valid inheritances and land papers from British government era allowed to stay and so on. Its not breadth first, thats the very lineage that turned this country into a distorted culture of congenital ingrates. They don't have to owe Brits anything, Britain owned the land, they disliked British immigration controls and then behaved as if they own the land and started vile terroristic activities against the country that saved their side in WW2. Why not? If you think the houses settlers are invading are "Israeli" then define Israels strict borders? Israel never defines its borders, its always changing based on whims. Obviously they have no legal papers for the lands they are stealing, they are making shit up as they go along. Therefore I think, it is necessary given Israel's weak and confused memory regarding their land borders to be given a very good, kinetic reminder as to their precise border lines. Britain or anyone else could install literal Hitler or Stalin for all I care, this changes nothing about the fact that they rightfully own a given parcel of land.
- gershy 2mo ago
  Israel is a nuclear power; it can't really be displaced. It sounds like the terms "ingratitude" / "ingrate" are not relevant to your stance and are just emotive distractions; I suggest we avoid those terms. Israel has a bunch of contested borders with varying levels of international recognition. Britain displaced the ottomans, and it seems you feel they had a valid claim to the previously ottoman lands. Then jews displaced the british - why, to you, does that same validity not apply here?
  - hardbass 2mo ago
    I have said it before, time. No sane Brit is trying to expel Normans and their descendants back to France. Israeli criminal robbery of others land literally happened in literal living memory. The same way South African crimes are still an active issue. Ingratitude is the only possible term when a group begins launching terrorist attacks on a country freely opening up its own lands for immigration to it and then imposing some natural immigration controls. Why is Israel trying to expand into Lebanon? What claims does it have there? Israel's statements are all bullshit, it never owned any of these lands and stole them from the Brits and now stealing from Palestinians, Lebanese and soon by their own admission Syrians and Turks too.
    - gershy 2mo ago
      - I assume you agree israel can't be physically displaced - I assume you agree that as britain's displacement of the ottomans was valid, so too is the jewish terrorist/renegade displacement of britain - I assume you agree britain was not acting altruistically, given its installation of a hitler ally as the jewish partner in diplomacy From the jewish perspective, britain allowing jews access to their own homeland is not an act meriting a response of gratitude. The remaining concern is regarding expulsion - I'd rather discuss this directly and not by analogy. Is there a particular large-scale instance of israel expelling some people which you feel is particularly unjustifiable?
- gershy 2mo ago
  Also, would you be interested to continue this conversation by phone or video call? We've been at this for more than a month now and I admire your respectfulness and tenacity and perspective, and I think we could get to the core of our disagreement more quickly in realtime. If you were interested I'd post my email here and we could exchange contact details!

by gershy 2mo ago

hardbass 2mo ago

Israel is immune as of yet due to parasitizing off western countries like Germany and USA. There is no reason to think they won't be much weakened if that support evaporates. It cannot be a "Western" steward if it violates the most fundamental principle of capitalism and western government viz property rights. Therefore again, my ideal and most just solution would be all land declared void and any people with valid inheritances and land papers from British government era allowed to stay and so on. Its not breadth first, thats the very lineage that turned this country into a distorted culture of congenital ingrates. They don't have to owe Brits anything, Britain owned the land, they disliked British immigration controls and then behaved as if they own the land and started vile terroristic activities against the country that saved their side in WW2. Why not? If you think the houses settlers are invading are "Israeli" then define Israels strict borders? Israel never defines its borders, its always changing based on whims. Obviously they have no legal papers for the lands they are stealing, they are making shit up as they go along. Therefore I think, it is necessary given Israel's weak and confused memory regarding their land borders to be given a very good, kinetic reminder as to their precise border lines. Britain or anyone else could install literal Hitler or Stalin for all I care, this changes nothing about the fact that they rightfully own a given parcel of land.

gershy 2mo ago
Israel is a nuclear power; it can't really be displaced. It sounds like the terms "ingratitude" / "ingrate" are not relevant to your stance and are just emotive distractions; I suggest we avoid those terms. Israel has a bunch of contested borders with varying levels of international recognition. Britain displaced the ottomans, and it seems you feel they had a valid claim to the previously ottoman lands. Then jews displaced the british - why, to you, does that same validity not apply here?
- hardbass 2mo ago
  I have said it before, time. No sane Brit is trying to expel Normans and their descendants back to France. Israeli criminal robbery of others land literally happened in literal living memory. The same way South African crimes are still an active issue. Ingratitude is the only possible term when a group begins launching terrorist attacks on a country freely opening up its own lands for immigration to it and then imposing some natural immigration controls. Why is Israel trying to expand into Lebanon? What claims does it have there? Israel's statements are all bullshit, it never owned any of these lands and stole them from the Brits and now stealing from Palestinians, Lebanese and soon by their own admission Syrians and Turks too.
  - gershy 2mo ago
    - I assume you agree israel can't be physically displaced - I assume you agree that as britain's displacement of the ottomans was valid, so too is the jewish terrorist/renegade displacement of britain - I assume you agree britain was not acting altruistically, given its installation of a hitler ally as the jewish partner in diplomacy From the jewish perspective, britain allowing jews access to their own homeland is not an act meriting a response of gratitude. The remaining concern is regarding expulsion - I'd rather discuss this directly and not by analogy. Is there a particular large-scale instance of israel expelling some people which you feel is particularly unjustifiable?
gershy 2mo ago
Also, would you be interested to continue this conversation by phone or video call? We've been at this for more than a month now and I admire your respectfulness and tenacity and perspective, and I think we could get to the core of our disagreement more quickly in realtime. If you were interested I'd post my email here and we could exchange contact details!