3 ms·

As someone who has gone through a phase of questioning my ... inner state of the matter on this topic, now in retrospect, I am so so so so soooooo glad that suc

As someone who has gone through a phase of questioning my ... inner state of the matter on this topic, now in retrospect, I am so so so so soooooo glad that such options were not readily available to me. If I was that age in the current world, I simply would've done it. Given the permanent nature of a transition on a body, I really wish the advocates of pushing this at young ages would not push back against discussions of people who decide to detransition. Such stories break my heart way more than someone being unable to transition before a certain age.

VCFundedGenYer 2mo ago
Not really understanding you. Are you softly still saying, as someone who isn't them, that you want to gatekeep this from people who don't feel comfortable in their own bodies?
- AlexandrB 2mo ago
  We do it all the time with people who believe they should be amputees. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrity-identity-disorder-biid https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrit...
  - summermusic 2mo ago
    > We do it all the time No, we don't. Your linked source literally says that surgeons and providers won't perform these amputations.
    - AlexandrB 2mo ago
      I mean we gatekeep major body alterations.
      - fallal 2mo ago
        And also no child is getting their arms chopped off because they say they don't want arms.
  - HedonicEscal8r 2mo ago
    Which is also wrong. People living with BIID are (usually) not irrational. The small percentage that do seek amputation have usually exhausted all treatment options, and find that amputation improves their quality of life.
    - rootusrootus 2mo ago
      We should let them, if they are of sound mind and capable of consenting. Part of that means they are not a minor.
      - HedonicEscal8r 2mo ago
        I agree that you should almost never offer amputations for BIID in minors, since delaying until adulthood would only risk a couple of years of distress and would not cause additional permanent harm.
      - pseudalopex 2mo ago
        Most developed countries allow minors to make medical decisions from an age or if enough mature.
    - slowmovintarget 2mo ago
      > People living with BIID are (usually) not irrational. This statement seems to be incorrect by definition. Do you mean, not otherwise irrational?
  - alexgieg 2mo ago
    Puberty blockers aren't amputations; they're reversible medication-based treatments. Amputation can only be opted for after the transgender individual reaches adulthood. The right-wing sociopathic influencers and politicians you opted to listen to know this perfectly well. They actively chose to lie about it and to stoke rage and fear, lest they lose followers, influence, money, and power.
- sail2boat3 2mo ago
  I'm not sure what you're trying to say by - "isn't them" If I did undergo that path when I wanted to, at which point would you consider me "becoming them"? At the inception of the thought? After some rumination? After making the decision? After first time taking meds? After undergoing surgery? I don't consider it gatekeeping, rather prevention of making an irreversible choice while the frontal lobe is still far from knowing even what path it wants for itself for the rest of its life. I know that might be seen as unfair to a lot of people, but given the persistence with which gender affirmation is being pushed, I feel that cases like me are simply considered collateral damage. Really glad I didn't end up as such.
  - pseudalopex 2mo ago
    > I don't consider it gatekeeping, rather prevention of making an irreversible choice while the frontal lobe is still far from knowing even what path it wants for itself for the rest of its life. To control access is gate keeping. Puberty blockers' effects are reversible generally. Puberty's effects are not. Gender affirming care regret rates are very low. > I know that might be seen as unfair to a lot of people, but given the persistence with which gender affirmation is being pushed, I feel that cases like me are simply considered collateral damage. Access to gender affirming care is pushed persistently because denial of gender affirming care was and is pushed persistently. And the benefits are significant. And regret rates are very low. Do you understand that no regretted treatment would require no treatment? What ratio of regretted treatment and regretted non treatment would you consider fair?
    - sail2boat3 2mo ago
      I guess things like these are one of the pillars of the division on the topic. You're trying to figure out a decent ratio, and I'd like the total number of regretted treatments to become a permanent flat zero. A child brought into this world learns from those who have walked on it for much much longer. It puts TRUST into them. The moment you have a single regretted treatment, that moment you have a human life who got failed by everyone around them. The social system, the government system, the family system. Systematically encouraging things where a regretted treatment can very well mean a life destroyed is not something I can ever support. One's perception that life dealt them inadequate set of cards should never result in a borderline-militant push for a systemic change that reduces regretted treatments to a ratio number.
amusable 2mo ago
100%, completely agree with this. I was a raised in an small town in the US where men were expected to football-loving brutes with hair-trigger tempers and went deer-hunting on the weekend. Given I was never like this, I also went through a phase of questioning - until I realized there are many ways of being a man. But I didn't come to that realization until I was in college.
- vextea 2mo ago
  Did you seek professional help and advice (e.g. a psychologist)? Because simply questioning is not enough to access medical interventions in the UK.
- UncleMeat 2mo ago
  Okay. Is there any evidence that kids who go to a gender care specialist with the idea that they don't fit into typical gender norms just get signed up for transition care right away? Why are we assuming that "hey I don't like sports" gets you puberty blockers? Kids undergo years of assessment.
  - amusable 2mo ago
    I mean, I questioned for years myself - longer than I was in that environment. And if some overzealous psychiatrist had diagnosed me as trans I would’ve absolutely taken whatever. Now that I’m older and settled and secure in my gender I’m EXTREMELY glad I didn’t do anything at the time
    - UncleMeat 2mo ago
      > if some overzealous psychiatrist had diagnosed me as trans This entire fear is not based in reality.
HedonicEscal8r 2mo ago
I think this is a failure of empathy. "Being unable to transition before a certain age" in this context entails a child having their body modified against their will, which they can only partially correct through expensive and avoidable surgeries in adulthood. It seems much worse than merely detransitioning to me.
leawi 2mo ago
"Such stories break my heart way more than someone being unable to transition before a certain age." Why is that? As the other commenter here suggested, this looks like a lack of empathy to me.
UncleMeat 2mo ago
Kids rarely get to decide unilaterally. They are evaluated by professionals. They don't just show up and say "give me permanent treatments." There are people who detransition. It is rare. It is wild to me that each of these people matter more to you than each genuinely trans person who is unable to transition because of the law. Both of these sets of people are stuck in bodies they don't want. Why is one worthy of so much more empathy than the other?

VCFundedGenYer 2mo ago

Not really understanding you. Are you softly still saying, as someone who isn't them, that you want to gatekeep this from people who don't feel comfortable in their own bodies?

AlexandrB 2mo ago
We do it all the time with people who believe they should be amputees. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrity-identity-disorder-biid https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/body-integrit...
- summermusic 2mo ago
  > We do it all the time No, we don't. Your linked source literally says that surgeons and providers won't perform these amputations.
  - AlexandrB 2mo ago
    I mean we gatekeep major body alterations.
    - fallal 2mo ago
      And also no child is getting their arms chopped off because they say they don't want arms.
- HedonicEscal8r 2mo ago
  Which is also wrong. People living with BIID are (usually) not irrational. The small percentage that do seek amputation have usually exhausted all treatment options, and find that amputation improves their quality of life.
  - rootusrootus 2mo ago
    We should let them, if they are of sound mind and capable of consenting. Part of that means they are not a minor.
    - HedonicEscal8r 2mo ago
      I agree that you should almost never offer amputations for BIID in minors, since delaying until adulthood would only risk a couple of years of distress and would not cause additional permanent harm.
    - pseudalopex 2mo ago
      Most developed countries allow minors to make medical decisions from an age or if enough mature.
  - slowmovintarget 2mo ago
    > People living with BIID are (usually) not irrational. This statement seems to be incorrect by definition. Do you mean, not otherwise irrational?
- alexgieg 2mo ago
  Puberty blockers aren't amputations; they're reversible medication-based treatments. Amputation can only be opted for after the transgender individual reaches adulthood. The right-wing sociopathic influencers and politicians you opted to listen to know this perfectly well. They actively chose to lie about it and to stoke rage and fear, lest they lose followers, influence, money, and power.
sail2boat3 2mo ago
I'm not sure what you're trying to say by - "isn't them" If I did undergo that path when I wanted to, at which point would you consider me "becoming them"? At the inception of the thought? After some rumination? After making the decision? After first time taking meds? After undergoing surgery? I don't consider it gatekeeping, rather prevention of making an irreversible choice while the frontal lobe is still far from knowing even what path it wants for itself for the rest of its life. I know that might be seen as unfair to a lot of people, but given the persistence with which gender affirmation is being pushed, I feel that cases like me are simply considered collateral damage. Really glad I didn't end up as such.
- pseudalopex 2mo ago
  > I don't consider it gatekeeping, rather prevention of making an irreversible choice while the frontal lobe is still far from knowing even what path it wants for itself for the rest of its life. To control access is gate keeping. Puberty blockers' effects are reversible generally. Puberty's effects are not. Gender affirming care regret rates are very low. > I know that might be seen as unfair to a lot of people, but given the persistence with which gender affirmation is being pushed, I feel that cases like me are simply considered collateral damage. Access to gender affirming care is pushed persistently because denial of gender affirming care was and is pushed persistently. And the benefits are significant. And regret rates are very low. Do you understand that no regretted treatment would require no treatment? What ratio of regretted treatment and regretted non treatment would you consider fair?
  - sail2boat3 2mo ago
    I guess things like these are one of the pillars of the division on the topic. You're trying to figure out a decent ratio, and I'd like the total number of regretted treatments to become a permanent flat zero. A child brought into this world learns from those who have walked on it for much much longer. It puts TRUST into them. The moment you have a single regretted treatment, that moment you have a human life who got failed by everyone around them. The social system, the government system, the family system. Systematically encouraging things where a regretted treatment can very well mean a life destroyed is not something I can ever support. One's perception that life dealt them inadequate set of cards should never result in a borderline-militant push for a systemic change that reduces regretted treatments to a ratio number.

amusable 2mo ago

100%, completely agree with this. I was a raised in an small town in the US where men were expected to football-loving brutes with hair-trigger tempers and went deer-hunting on the weekend. Given I was never like this, I also went through a phase of questioning - until I realized there are many ways of being a man. But I didn't come to that realization until I was in college.

vextea 2mo ago
Did you seek professional help and advice (e.g. a psychologist)? Because simply questioning is not enough to access medical interventions in the UK.
UncleMeat 2mo ago
Okay. Is there any evidence that kids who go to a gender care specialist with the idea that they don't fit into typical gender norms just get signed up for transition care right away? Why are we assuming that "hey I don't like sports" gets you puberty blockers? Kids undergo years of assessment.
- amusable 2mo ago
  I mean, I questioned for years myself - longer than I was in that environment. And if some overzealous psychiatrist had diagnosed me as trans I would’ve absolutely taken whatever. Now that I’m older and settled and secure in my gender I’m EXTREMELY glad I didn’t do anything at the time
  - UncleMeat 2mo ago
    > if some overzealous psychiatrist had diagnosed me as trans This entire fear is not based in reality.

HedonicEscal8r 2mo ago

I think this is a failure of empathy. "Being unable to transition before a certain age" in this context entails a child having their body modified against their will, which they can only partially correct through expensive and avoidable surgeries in adulthood. It seems much worse than merely detransitioning to me.

leawi 2mo ago

"Such stories break my heart way more than someone being unable to transition before a certain age." Why is that? As the other commenter here suggested, this looks like a lack of empathy to me.

UncleMeat 2mo ago

Kids rarely get to decide unilaterally. They are evaluated by professionals. They don't just show up and say "give me permanent treatments." There are people who detransition. It is rare. It is wild to me that each of these people matter more to you than each genuinely trans person who is unable to transition because of the law. Both of these sets of people are stuck in bodies they don't want. Why is one worthy of so much more empathy than the other?